I never knew this existed - just released on a label called Soul Tribe...

https://shop.recordshack.org/sa/sounds/172491_B_01.mp3

I'd be happier not knowing it existed Pete! typically awful inst. The backing track isnt it?

I'd be happier not knowing it existed Pete! typically awful inst. The backing track isnt it?

Yes it appears to be. Never thought of them recording it anything else but mono. Thats why these things always amaze me.

I never knew this existed - just released on a label called Soul Tribe...

https://shop.recordshack.org/sa/sounds/172491_B_01.mp3

Now I swear blind that in the late 70's me and my mates were at the Sunday night X films (as you do , at that age! )

but there was a cheap tacky film that had the instrumental playing in the background , definitely no words. So if any you can go through

your Betamax Porn collections and have a look it would be appreciated , can't remember name of film so you'll have to watch them all , Again!!! .

Cheers

Swifty

the same label thats pressed up The Tangeers

Now I swear blind that in the late 70's me and my mates were at the Sunday night X films (as you do , at that age! )

but there was a cheap tacky film that had the instrumental playing in the background , definitely no words. So if any you can go through

your Betamax Porn collections and have a look it would be appreciated , can't remember name of film so you'll have to watch them all , Again!!! .

Cheers

Swifty

Was it "DEBBIE DOES WIGAN" ?????

At a guess it came from Lou Barretto who release Gloria Jones Gone With The Wind recently via Soul Purpose (Phil Dick's label I think). Don't know who is behind Soul Tribe though.

As instrumentals ago its ok, Im actually shocked there wasnt ab instro of this played at WC anyway.

Russ

just listened now at home and as far as Wigan type instrumentals go not bad but wouldn't want to hear it out nowadays to be honest.

Thinking about it doubt Lou would have anything to do with it??

Supposed to be a legit Canadian label reading on the net.

Just looking on line they have released King Moses "I've Got This Feeling", Norris Vines "Give In" and Sweet Inspirations. All out of Toronto.

Just tried their website, unregistered domain or summat.

Just looking on line they have released King Moses "I've Got This Feeling", Norris Vines "Give In" and Sweet Inspirations. All out of Toronto.

Just tried their website, unregistered domain or summat.

Toronto?...Martin Koppell?..

Holy Moses, now that is something, and i mean in a very bad way

Now I swear blind that in the late 70's me and my mates were at the Sunday night X films (as you do , at that age! )

but there was a cheap tacky film that had the instrumental playing in the background , definitely no words. So if any you can go through

your Betamax Porn collections and have a look it would be appreciated , can't remember name of film so you'll have to watch them all , Again!!! .

Cheers

Swifty

i checked, no dice

I never knew this existed - just released on a label called Soul Tribe...

https://shop.recordshack.org/sa/sounds/172491_B_01.mp3

It was issued in the 80's or very early 90's on an AVI 12 inch

Cheers

Mick

It was issued in the 80's or very early 90's on an AVI 12 inch

Cheers

Mick

the avi 12" of tainted love (I'm talking about the vocal version) is the easiest way to get it in the US. I have never ever found a copy of it (and still don't own it). It is almost never on ebay or publicly for sale. Maybe it shows up in other cities.

i checked, no dice

bet it was fun checking Bob , things you do for research eh?

Cheers

Swifty

the avi 12" of tainted love (I'm talking about the vocal version) is the easiest way to get it in the US. I have never ever found a copy of it (and still don't own it). It is almost never on ebay or publicly for sale. Maybe it shows up in other cities.

The AVI 12" with the Instrumental is the B side to a Vocal - the vocal is a remix or re-recording, but the Instrumental is the 60's backing.

It has always been tough to get - About five years ago I saw a copy on Gemm for about $60 - I kept checking on it for over a year, but never bought it - It eventually sold, and I've never bothered to look for it since.

Cheers

Mick

Just looking on line they have released King Moses "I've Got This Feeling", Norris Vines "Give In" and Sweet Inspirations. All out of Toronto.

Just tried their website, unregistered domain or summat.

These records have been out a long time. They picked up an unissued Sweet Inspirations which isn't a bad pair of sides (one quite recent), Eddie Billups, and a couple of unissued sides by the bird that did "Gangster Boy" (the old "Dentist" spin Wanda McDaniels). I picked them all up (apart from King Moses which I already had) but was never really sure how legit they were.

On the Avi instro version, you would have thought that they could have added a lead instrument (sax, flute, Hammond B3) to relace the vocal track that was removed -- the released verson was a real lazy effort.

Mind you, I guess even having a 'new lead' on the instro wouldn't have dragged it's 'soul quotient' up that much.

The AVI 12" with the Instrumental is the B side to a Vocal - the vocal is a remix or re-recording, but the Instrumental is the 60's backing.

It has always been tough to get - About five years ago I saw a copy on Gemm for about $60 - I kept checking on it for over a year, but never bought it - It eventually sold, and I've never bothered to look for it since.

Cheers

Mick

Is it really that tough. I've got one up in the loft somewhere (along with all the other crap that's migrated up there).

Steve

:sleep3: :sleep3:

Is it really that tough. I've got one up in the loft somewhere (along with all the other crap that's migrated up there).

Steve

Maybe not as much as I thought - could be that it was just appeared to be elusive at the time I was looking at one 5 years back. As I said, I never bothered to look for it after that, so It could be there are a few more around than I thought.

:sleep3: :sleep3:

Go and have a lie down.

Just heard it all the way through and I think I shall purchase this 45.

Just heard it all the way through and I think I shall purchase this 45.

Bet you just cant wait for the Carstairs Inst. :thumbup:

Kegsy

Now you've done it Kegsy.

Expect to hear an "exclusive" Carstairs instrumental played at a venue near you, followed by a "legitimate issue" next year.

Yes it appears to be. Never thought of them recording it anything else but mono. Thats why these things always amaze me.

Very few records were recorded in mono by the mid 60s most put the track down first and added the vocal later, originally on two track then on to 3 and 4 track which meant that things like strings, brass or backing vocals could be added along the way if the producer wasn't happy with the sound. Ady

Very few records were recorded in mono by the mid 60s most put the track down first and added the vocal later, originally on two track then on to 3 and 4 track which meant that things like strings, brass or backing vocals could be added along the way if the producer wasn't happy with the sound. Ady

So there could really be instrumentals of everything?

Wish you'd found one of I'll Always Need You when you had the RCA stuff, that would have been one of the best instrumentals ever.

So there could really be instrumentals of everything?

Wish you'd found one of I'll Always Need You when you had the RCA stuff, that would have been one of the best instrumentals ever.

Yes, assuming you can get the original master multis and not the mix down for the 45. Often they would re-use a multi once a satisfactory mix had been made for a single so it is only going to be possible on some. Also the cost of working with multis can be high so it's not something you'd do as a matter of course. If you had a good mix down you would only deal with the multis if it was very special and you had the facilities. Luckily at Ace we have and have been able to rescue many unreleased masters in this way and have found plenty of instrumentals some of which are good but a lot are mundane.

also a lot of things are done in the mixdown besides just the levels -- e.g. all EQing, certain effects, that make it often less authentic to do your own mix.

I only heard about this recently, but apparently a new thing that a subgroup of collectors are into are collecting "stems" -- the original unmixed tracks. I guess big source of them is when a TV / Film placement happens and they are given the master and someone leaks the tracks. Apparently Questlove has a large collection of "stems" of things that he's definitely not supposed to have.

When working from multi tracks you obviously get whatever was recorded onto each individual track but you have to guess (by ear) what "outboard" effects and other processes were applied to each track in the original mixdown stage. And of course you'd need to attempt to set all levels and panning positions and control any muting in and out to match the original mix.

Many effects are used at the same time - reverb, compressors, limiters, gates, delays, EQ, harmonics, aural exciters, etc - and it's impossible to recreate the exact effect or process because you'd really need to have the identical outboard equipment and you'd obviously need to apply the identical settings for threshold, attack, amount etc.

Even with automated mixdowns from the 1980s or whenever (and even if you have access to the original automation discs or files) you'd get a different sound if you were using different equipment and settings.

It can be quite an art to get a close (not exact) aural representation of the the original mix.

Doing this is a trial and error thing, very time consuming and obviously very costly. Even working on something as "simple" as an 8-track multi can take a full day (or more) just to set it up and route channels to and from (sends and returns) effects and processors etc. And if you don't get the results you want you've quickly started to waste thousands of pounds in studio time, engineer fees and maybe special equipment hire etc.

If you're working on a previously unissued track you have a license to be creative because there isn't an original mixdown to emulate. But if the aim is to try to recreate the original mix it's not easy working from multi tracks and you'd be better doing pro audio restoration from a record because the sound of the record would have also been effected by other post-mix processes (such as compression) in the mastering and cutting stages.

There are some serious analytical tools these days which can help you to "see" all sorts of helpful details such as frequency spectrums, dynamics and stereo spreads etc but only your ears will let you know if it sounds or feels right in the end.

These days if people have multi tracks parts as individual digital files ("stems" as Bob said) they can experiment and mix easier and faster (and certainly cheaper) but it can be very hard to replicate the sound and feel of many old analogue effects and processors with virtual tools.

Pretty soon we'll have the capability to digitally deconstruct old recordings from 2-tracks mixdowns into their isolated component parts. In theory it can be done now (at least to an extent) but the results are poor and the process has a damaging effect on the tonal characteristics of the music.

Things are gradually developing and probably within five years or so we'll all be able to remix or reconstruct recordings (the final mixdowns) with some $10,000 software. Then we'll be able to have instrumentals and acapellas of almost anything.

One more thought about multi-tracking... I think people were far more creative and inventive in the days when they were restricted to 8 or 16 channels. Since the days of unlimited audio channels many people overproduce music and lose focus on the heart of a song or a recording. They do many things for the sake of it (just because they can) and waste a lot of time making music which often lacks something which was so "simple" in the old days.

Our advanced technology can sometimes send us backwards in a creative way, somehow. That's what I'm trying to say.

Paul

apparently a new thing that a subgroup of collectors are into are collecting "stems" -- the original unmixed tracks.

A couple of years back I got ahold of the full 8-track "stem" of Marvin & Tammi's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough". It was an absolute joy to listen to and to work with. It really gave me an insight to what went down in the studio. I.e. "soloing" the vocals, percussions, drums, guitars, strings etc. Then adding them in together, just vocals and bass etc. Hard to describe, but it's awesome.

two very interesting post thanks

........ aural exciters ........

a lot of women I know like these.

Go and have a lie down.

:lol:

Things are gradually developing and probably within five years or so we'll all be able to remix or reconstruct recordings (the final mixdowns) with some $10,000 software. Then we'll be able to have instrumentals and acapellas of almost anything.

Almost 20 years ago I saw an ad on the internet for some software that used "artificial intelligence" (haha) to strip individual components from a mix. They had some sample on the internet of some michael jackson track where they stripped the vocals (it wasn't the stupid invert a channel and mix to mono trick). I don't know what happened to that.

This company does something vaguely similar -- removing background music from film, specifically to avoid having to relicense the background music when rereleasing the film in some format:

https://www.audionamix.com/services/index.php

That's probably an easier task than obtaining separate music tracks from a music mixdown.

Someone told me that there was some company that people hired that did analysis of the original music and then recreated the master from scratch... they got sued by the master rights holder and the court found that they did not violate the master rights, even though their recreation sounded exactly the same. I can't remember the name of the company (I thought it was harmonix, but when I google it's the company that created guitar hero...).

One more thought about multi-tracking... I think people were far more creative and inventive in the days when they were restricted to 8 or 16 channels. Since the days of unlimited audio channels many people overproduce music and lose focus on the heart of a song or a recording. They do many things for the sake of it (just because they can) and waste a lot of time making music which often lacks something which was so "simple" in the old days.

Our advanced technology can sometimes send us backwards in a creative way, somehow. That's what I'm trying to say.

Paul

Bit of a re-run of the above quote but...

It's the old problem of 'what do you want when you can have anything you want'

When you are limited you have to use some creativity / talent to make the best you can from what you have.I'm biased because I like simpler, rawer stuff but it seems to be that with too much to chose from you lose the idea of "finished".That's without going anywhere near the concept of an "imperfect" recording. When a voice broke from feeling or passion, when a missed beat added something. I'm never sure now if that would be allowed to happen, or if it did that six guys spent 3 days getting it "just so".

Whine over, and I'm sure it's been done many times. Fortunately there's plenty to listen to without going there.

It's almost better expressed by the visual world we are assaulted with everyday, any effect you want is easy to get, over used and in your face. When a "complicated" effect was needed years ago, it took skill, time and money, and stood out. Now anyone with a 6 month course, a 5 bob computer, and no imagination can (and repeatedly does) do it, and it blends in with all the rest.

I've got a Gloria Jones autographed copy for sale if anyone wants a 'lil piece of history.........

https://www.discogs.com/buy/Vinyl/Gloria-Jones-Tainted-Love/48359470?ev=bp_titl

Ian D

I've got a Gloria Jones autographed copy for sale if anyone wants a 'lil piece of history.........

https://www.discogs.c...9470?ev=bp_titl

Ian D

Had any interest at that price Ian. If so I'll sell mine

Steve H

Expect to hear an "exclusive" Carstairs instrumental played at a venue near you, followed by a "legitimate issue" next year.

I have the Carstairs instrumental. I'll do an MP3 for Pete.......

Ian D

I have the Carstairs instrumental. I'll do an MP3 for Pete.......

Ian D

Thanks Ian!

I've got a Gloria Jones autographed copy for sale if anyone wants a 'lil piece of history.........

https://www.discogs.c...9470?ev=bp_titl

Ian D

GREAT STUFF I WOULD LIKE A COPY PLEASE? IAN I WILL HAVE THE AUTOGRAPH,?? "The last thing that went through MARC BOLANS mind was a tree" NOTHING LIKE AN OLD JOKE

So there could really be instrumentals of everything?

Wish you'd found one of I'll Always Need You when you had the RCA stuff, that would have been one of the best instrumentals ever.

Yes, assuming you can get the original master multis and not the mix down for the 45. Often they would re-use a multi once a satisfactory mix had been made for a single so it is only going to be possible on some. Also the cost of working with multis can be high so it's not something you'd do as a matter of course. If you had a good mix down you would only deal with the multis if it was very special and you had the facilities. Luckily at Ace we have and have been able to rescue many unreleased masters in this way and have found plenty of instrumentals some of which are good but a lot are mundane.

Been looking for an instro to Shirley Ellis`s "Clapping Song". Now that would be a player!

Pretty soon we'll have the capability to digitally deconstruct old recordings from 2-tracks mixdowns into their isolated component parts. In theory it can be done now (at least to an extent) but the results are poor and the process has a damaging effect on the tonal characteristics of the music.

Things are gradually developing and probably within five years or so we'll all be able to remix or reconstruct recordings (the final mixdowns) with some $10,000 software. Then we'll be able to have instrumentals and acapellas of almost anything.

Paul

If you mean the final mixed tape by two track mix downs, that's very close to being the record. I don't think you'll be able to seperate all the instruments and vocals as many have the same frequency and cut over each other, particularly the vocals and mid range instruments. I'm sure we'll be able to fanny about with different aspects of a recording but if it's a mixed tape or the actual record it won't be remotely as good as getting a multi track master.

Is the AVI 7 inch a different mix to the orig 45 ? I have a French one and it says "Disco Remix' (or something ) on the sleeve but sounds the same as the 60s 45 to me ?

Cheers Paul

Go and have a lie down.

Thanks Pete. I will.

Thanks Pete. I will.

Bet you feel refreshed now Mark!

A couple of years back I got ahold of the full 8-track "stem" of Marvin & Tammi's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough". It was an absolute joy to listen to and to work with. It really gave me an insight to what went down in the studio. I.e. "soloing" the vocals, percussions, drums, guitars, strings etc. Then adding them in together, just vocals and bass etc. Hard to describe, but it's awesome.

A couple of years back I got ahold of the full 8-track "stem" of Marvin & Tammi's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough". It was an absolute joy to listen to and to work with. It really gave me an insight to what went down in the studio. I.e. "soloing" the vocals, percussions, drums, guitars, strings etc. Then adding them in together, just vocals and bass etc. Hard to describe, but it's awesome.

Sebastian, didn't you put these tracks up on Refosoul only for them to be taken down for some legal reasons?

If you mean the final mixed tape by two track mix downs, that's very close to being the record. I don't think you'll be able to seperate all the instruments and vocals as many have the same frequency and cut over each other, particularly the vocals and mid range instruments. I'm sure we'll be able to fanny about with different aspects of a recording but if it's a mixed tape or the actual record it won't be remotely as good as getting a multi track master.

I think you're making assumptions about how the technology works, I doubt the algorithm depends on no tracks having the same frequency.

here's a simple example in another domain. draw a diagonal line with a thick marker on a piece of paper. draw a diagonal line in the opposite direction over the first line, making an X. The place where the line intersects has the two lines overlapping. But you can still look at the X and separate the two components.

all of that said, i still don't know how effective whatever much more complicated algorithm they would be using would be.

Sebastian, didn't you put these tracks up on Refosoul only for them to be taken down for some legal reasons?

Yes I did post them in refosoul.

Got a lot of grief from especially Gavin Stearn about it who was going to write, and I quote, "to univesal and forwarding your posts so they can have you on a plate. hope they make an example of you"... so I asked Mike to take them down. It just wasn't worth the hassle.

But anyone with even the most simple google skills could find those "stems" or "multitracks" as they are usually referred to as. They are all over the place.