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tomangoes

The 'upfront scene' ?

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58 minutes ago, geeselad said:

I'd consider, soul function, Burnley, Go Go children, different strokes as some of the Key venues. tunes wise I'm hesitant to post for the sake of being berated by the rare soul crowd, and oldies crew for that matter. Best thing is to get yourself along to one of those venues.;

Would agree with that Geese, would also add in True Soul in Edinburgh and Aberdeen Soul Collective plus Empty Bottles

Was good seeing you at New Year

 

Dave

Edited by Ahoy Sailor

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FFS, are we STILL having this debate/discussion/argument (delete as appropriate)? It began in 1974 for chrissakes! Back then, as one or two will no doubt remember, Levine & Curtis began moving the Mecca playlist in an altogether new direction. At about the same time, the Casino also began moving in another, albeit slightly different, direction. The one common denominator was that BOTH directions were far removed from what we, the punters of the day, had always known as "Northern" soul. (God, how I've always hated that term!). This was the catalyst, (or one of them!), for many of the "old guard" leaving the scene. And that scene had NEVER been a 100% soul scene. Sure, PREDOMINANTLY black 60's soul music, but most certainly not EXCLUSIVELY. The whole black versus white, "do they have/sing with soul" argument is both ancient, and tedious.

Now, again, many of us lowly punters believe that the so-called "Northern" scene actually received a grievous blow in '74, stumbled along fatally wounded through '75, and ultimately succumbed in '76. Only to be replaced by a "Rare" soul scene. This, ultimately, is/was neither bad, nor good. You pays your money, you takes your choice, Everyone dances to a different beat, don't they? 

My personal likes are what I listened to between 1971 and 1974. That's what I want to hear, nothing more, nothing less. There are thousands of records, played at youth clubs in the north of England, and at the original scene venues such as the Wheel, Torch, Mecca, Pendulum, Catacombs etc. etc., that I never get bored of listening. It doesn't detract in any way from the quality of other sub-genres, be they modern, jazz fusion, funk etc. etc. Gil Scott Heron is a wonderful performer and recording artist, but none of his output could remotely be termed as "Northern". Which is why "The Bottle" was most certainly NOT universally greeted with enthusiasm by myself, and other like minded "souls". I'm quite happy to listen to, and enjoy, ALL types of soul music, but please, quit calling this stuff "Northern". It wasn't then, it isn't now, and won't be in the future! It doesn't mean its bad, just different!

No doubt I'll probably be taken to task about this by one or two more "enlightened' people on this forum. I was when I first spoke about this at the Mecca nearly fifty years ago. Didn't bother me then, wont bother me now. As I said, good soul music is good soul music. Its just not all suited to what I would call a "Northern" event, that's all. If you want to be "upfront', then fine, I have no issue with that, at all. I'll just stay downback, if that's ok?

(Lights blue touch paper, retreats to a safe distance, places fingers in ears.....).

P.S. Possibly on the wrong thread. Don't shout at me!

Edited by Joey
finishing of a sentence properly

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1 hour ago, Henning v Herzen said:

Well I would like to try to give it a different view.

For me, if an upfront scene exists, it's:

- djs being open minded on era of music 6ts/7ts/8ts....... and style gospel/funk/soul/disco..... ovo policy though

- venue could be different to classic venues with wooden floor, balcony....

- punters are open and love to dance whatever kind if music 

- you rarely hear this has been played here or there. It's maybe more watching through the glasses of the unknown to let it go.

But hey. What do I know. Just a few thoughts. Maybe it's just a new word for old things.

Love

Henning 

 

 

Spot on mate 👍

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1 hour ago, Henning v Herzen said:

Well I would like to try to give it a different view.

For me, if an upfront scene exists, it's:

- djs being open minded on era of music 6ts/7ts/8ts....... and style gospel/funk/soul/disco..... ovo policy though

- venue could be different to classic venues with wooden floor, balcony....

- punters are open and love to dance whatever kind if music 

- you rarely hear this has been played here or there. It's maybe more watching through the glasses of the unknown to let it go.

But hey. What do I know. Just a few thoughts. Maybe it's just a new word for old things.

Love

Henning 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, jez jones said:

 

Pretty much nailed it there...a simple answer to the the question really.... no need imo to disect any further . As for 'big tunes of the day'...well that's subjective and personal I reckon ..and thats never changed over time has it ?

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I can't believe you have been a member on here since 2004 and have never heard the term 'upfront', but surely and have you have just alluded to, you love your favourites because of the memories and basically you will never change.

'I won't be slagging off the top 500 or 5000 for that matter because they are the tunes that relate to many memories and history is important'.

Or are you trying in some way to make a point? 

'Same old same old never happened' 'Discoveries between 1970 and 1980 were so plentiful and great'

It would appear to me that after all these years you have never once sort out the 'upfront' clubs and may I add, you never will.

So it begs the question 'are you trying in some way to make a point?

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7 minutes ago, tim smithers said:

Or Rugby 10th Feb, freestyle room , where me and Sal and a few others will be playing all sorts of obscure soul and funk lol

Sorry guys rugby's back room, and Swintons , witton albions dolly room, va va voom, empty bottles, pumping hearts all doing it. Please feel free to add to the list. 

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19 minutes ago, dekka said:

I can't believe you have been a member on here since 2004 and have never heard the term 'upfront', but surely and have you have just alluded to, you love your favourites because of the memories and basically you will never change.

'I won't be slagging off the top 500 or 5000 for that matter because they are the tunes that relate to many memories and history is important'.

Or are you trying in some way to make a point? 

'Same old same old never happened' 'Discoveries between 1970 and 1980 were so plentiful and great'

It would appear to me that after all these years you have never once sort out the 'upfront' clubs and may I add, you never will.

So it begs the question 'are you trying in some way to make a point?

Nope, just acknowledging I more understand the term, after a few explanations were offered.

I was also listening to this music and attending venues 28 years before I joined this site! Got on here after LA2004 where it was recommended there. 

If I could play a couple of up front records over the last few years it would be these.

What a dance beat..

Obviously before they charted....

Maybe some DJs did?

Ed

 

 

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16 minutes ago, geeselad said:

Sorry guys rugby's back room, and Swintons , witton albions dolly room, va va voom, empty bottles, pumping hearts all doing it. Please feel free to add to the list. 

Our Time Is Now 2018 - Tunstall , kickin' in tomorrow  night  !!

Edited by Kev John

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8 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

Nope, just acknowledging I more understand the term, after a few explanations were offered.

I was also listening to this music and attending venues 28 years before I joined this site! Got on here after LA2004 where it was recommended there. 

If I could play a couple of up front records over the last few years it would be these.

What a dance beat..

Obviously before they charted....

Maybe some DJs did?

Ed

 

 

I still haven't changed my opinion of you, especially after some sarcastic reply, plenty of clubs advertising on this thread, get out there and then come back and give us a review of the ones you have been to and then you can tell us what you think 'upfront' means, but no you won't go, I know it and you know it

 

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At what point have I offered a bad opinion of upfront?

Contrare....

Its always been upfront, with a sideshow of oldies only.

I also don't Diss oldies only. 

I'm sure many soul source's will be joining me at LV2018 in March when no doubt we will hear the best of both as well as meeting the originators.

Ed

 

 

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2 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

At what point have I offered a bad opinion of upfront?

Contrare....

Its always been upfront, with a sideshow of oldies only.

I also don't Diss oldies only. 

I'm sure many soul source's will be joining me at LV2018 in March when no doubt we will hear the best of both as well as meeting the originators.

Ed

 

 

So all this is some elaborate plug, well done you got me fooled

 

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31 minutes ago, back street blue said:

I've always preferred the term "cutting edge" (no offence intended!!!)............................... 

cutting edge.jpg

Yep same thing basically although today not much is cutting edge, upfront or new or any other way you look at it. 

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18 minutes ago, chalky said:

Yep same thing basically although today not much is cutting edge, upfront or new or any other way you look at it. 

not to you lads who have been ahead of the pack for such a long time.......but to us Luddites who are just finding out...we're hearing "new" stuff all the time :thumbsup:

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Come come, credit where it's due ' up front ' is the accepted terminology.

Just need a name of the originator, and they can be hailed alongside DG.

At no point in time in the history of this scene has every tune been loved by all involved, but would we really change anything?

Tim Tam to Dave n the giants, they all played a part...

Just enjoy the next installments...

Ed

 

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4 hours ago, tomangoes said:

Come come, credit where it's due ' up front ' is the accepted terminology.

Just need a name of the originator, and they can be hailed alongside DG.

At no point in time in the history of this scene has every tune been loved by all involved, but would we really change anything?

Tim Tam to Dave n the giants, they all played a part...

Just enjoy the next installments...

Ed

 

I think chalky is pretty spot on as to its origins, but I'd say it was first used regularly about 10 /12 years ago, and with Steve cato's soul or nothing,  Adam and mat's move on. I think there was a general appetite for a little more diversity in playlists. I I used the term to promote change in Stoke a little later. 

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10 hours ago, geeselad said:

I think chalky is pretty spot on as to its origins, but I'd say it was first used regularly about 10 /12 years ago, and with Steve cato's soul or nothing,  Adam and mat's move on. I think there was a general appetite for a little more diversity in playlists. I I used the term to promote change in Stoke a little later. 

So basically it's an eclectic mix of (maybe) danceable  black music rather than just northern soul..... ?  Does "Upfront" just represent a broad mix of tracks that haven't been heard before on the northern soul scene and are therefore new to punters who don't normally listen to much else apart from NS -  But these tracks maybe very well known in other circles.- funk, folk, jazz -  so not rare in all cases?

E.g I imagine many hippies, students, folk music fans etc heard the Richie Havens track back in the early 70s.

The Gil-Scott Heron track on another thread (Lady Day and John Coltrane) is so  well known it couldn't be called "rare" under any circumstances. Although the UK Philips single may be scarce but that's another matter.

So "cutting edge" means cutting edge for the musically unenlightened on the NS scene? :g:

Well to me the term "cutting edge" would only apply to new music . It has an avante-garde association.  Not really to anything retrospective. And not to tracks that are historically well established in other music genres:   jazz, jazz funk R&B.  Maybe a better term sould be "that certain lightbulb moment".  I think the term and explanation would look more strange to those who already have eclectic musical tastes.  Probably not to those who  only listen to northern soul.

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9 minutes ago, maslar said:

So basically it's an eclectic mix of (maybe) danceable  black music rather than just northern soul..... ?  Does "Upfront" just represent a broad mix of tracks that haven't been heard before on the northern soul scene and are therefore new to punters who don't normally listen to much else apart from NS -  But these tracks maybe very well known in other circles.- funk, folk, jazz -  so not rare in all cases?

E.g I imagine many hippies, students, folk music fans etc heard the Richie Havens track back in the early 70s.

The Gil-Scott Heron track on another thread (Lady Day and John Coltrane) is so  well known it couldn't be called "rare" under any circumstances. Although the UK Philips single may be scarce but that's another matter.

So "cutting edge" means cutting edge for the musically unenlightened on the NS scene? :g:

Well to me the term "cutting edge" would only apply to new music . It has an avante-garde association.  Not really to anything retrospective. And not to tracks that are historically well established in other music genres:   jazz, jazz funk R&B.  Maybe a better term sould be "that certain lightbulb moment".  I think the term and explanation would look more strange to those who already have eclectic musical tastes.  Probably not to those who  only listen to northern soul.

Couldn't have said it better another good example would be 

Was gobsmacked when I heard this played, wtf, but it works on the dance floor and has been popular in the last 12 months 

 

Edited by geeselad

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5 minutes ago, maslar said:

So "cutting edge" means cutting edge for the musically unenlightened on the NS scene? :g:

 

.....in my dialogue above, Chalky said not much is new today......and the point made in my response was that the "uninitiated" are still hearing stuff for the first time so in that sense it's new to them......nothing more, nothing less.:thumbsup:

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, back street blue said:

.....in my dialogue above, Chalky said not much is new today......and the point made in my response was that the "uninitiated" are still hearing stuff for the first time so in that sense it's new to them......nothing more, nothing less.:thumbsup:

 

 

 

 

I agree plenty out there that can be turned from the oldies side of the scene.  Thee will also always be something new to us all on all sides of the scene.  By unknowns or newies I mean never had any exposure before.

There are still some newies but by and large very few, certainly not many of any great quality.  Unissued tapes and vault material will be the  main source in the future.

 

Edited by chalky

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3 hours ago, maslar said:

So basically it's an eclectic mix of (maybe) danceable  black music rather than just northern soul..... ?  Does "Upfront" just represent a broad mix of tracks that haven't been heard before on the northern soul scene and are therefore new to punters who don't normally listen to much else apart from NS -  But these tracks maybe very well known in other circles.- funk, folk, jazz -  so not rare in all cases?

E.g I imagine many hippies, students, folk music fans etc heard the Richie Havens track back in the early 70s.

The Gil-Scott Heron track on another thread (Lady Day and John Coltrane) is so  well known it couldn't be called "rare" under any circumstances. Although the UK Philips single may be scarce but that's another matter.

So "cutting edge" means cutting edge for the musically unenlightened on the NS scene? :g:

Well to me the term "cutting edge" would only apply to new music . It has an avante-garde association.  Not really to anything retrospective. And not to tracks that are historically well established in other music genres:   jazz, jazz funk R&B.  Maybe a better term sould be "that certain lightbulb moment".  I think the term and explanation would look more strange to those who already have eclectic musical tastes.  Probably not to those who  only listen to northern soul.

No, it was referring to 60s and 70s initially, unknown, semi known etc but it broadened out eventually to include the funky stuff, the funky stuff went too far IMO and had a detrimental effect on venues, certainly wasn't my preferred listening on a night out.  It was simply as I said a term applied by others to differentiate the nighters in question, and later soul nights from those that played the classics.  

People always try and complicate matters.  Half the tracks listed here, most intact wouldn't have been considered for some venues as being good enough (not saying they are bad records either).  It was all an attempt to get the nighter scene back to the progressive attitude of Wigan's main room, Stafford, Blackburn, The Wilton etc etc as the nighter scene around 2000 was simply going through he motions.

Edited by chalky

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Still some nighters attempting to go with the "upfront" progressive attitude, 100 Club, Ady still finding some gems and Butch of course.  Mick H and his Quality of Soul although I think he is having some issues with the venue so you will have to check.  Burnley but again I think they have lost the venue.  Soul Funktion for the funky harder edge stuff etc etc.  Plenty of soul nights doing something different too, just have to look for the better nights.

Edited by chalky

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4 hours ago, chalky said:

No, it was referring to 60s and 70s initially, unknown, semi known etc but it broadened out eventually to include the funky stuff, the funky stuff went too far IMO and had a detrimental effect on venues, certainly wasn't my preferred listening on a night out.  It was simply as I said a term applied by others to differentiate the nighters in question, and later soul nights from those that played the classics.  

People always try and complicate matters.  Half the tracks listed here, most intact wouldn't have been considered for some venues as being good enough (not saying they are bad records either).  It was all an attempt to get the nighter scene back to the progressive attitude of Wigan's main room, Stafford, Blackburn, The Wilton etc etc as the nighter scene around 2000 was simply going through he motions.

I agree chalky & I think Ed was just trying to give the same point of view some do feel that we are moving away from our roots, I do like some upfront tracks but it's not for me maybe one day but hey, I still enjoy a full english or my Sunday dinner so maybe I am stuck in my ways & not down with the kids:)

P.s. A Joke not sarcasm

Kirsty

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There is no excuse for playing the same old same old unless it's a same old event.

I commented years ago that I look through Manships rare soul price guide and there's about 25000 singles listed, of which I knew only half at best, at that time.

Now today with the most fantastic thing invented for music in the last 25 years YOU TUBE and I can systematically check out the ones I don't know and rate them.

So for arguments sake, there's at least 12000 very playable tracks just on that list.

Then we have album tracks, everything after 1978 released, studio tapes, etc.

You get the point. Probably 20000 tracks that could be played and liked, and that's cutting out the mediocre the extreme the rock and roll the ska the deep funk etc. Just good soul records brown or blue eyed that can encourage a dance or two.

That's a lot to pick from, and I'm sure up front, go ahead, something new, not the 500, movements do play tunes from this lesser known pool.

Even the oldies only nights have a pool of about 7000 pre 1980 quite well known tracks I read once (Tim Brown quote?)

No need for anybody to get fed up if they look hard enough.

Ed 

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28 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

There is no excuse for playing the same old same old unless it's a same old event.

I commented years ago that I look through Manships rare soul price guide and there's about 25000 singles listed, of which I knew only half at best, at that time.

Now today with the most fantastic thing invented for music in the last 25 years YOU TUBE and I can systematically check out the ones I don't know and rate them.

So for arguments sake, there's at least 12000 very playable tracks just on that list.

Then we have album tracks, everything after 1978 released, studio tapes, etc.

You get the point. Probably 20000 tracks that could be played and liked, and that's cutting out the mediocre the extreme the rock and roll the ska the deep funk etc. Just good soul records brown or blue eyed that can encourage a dance or two.

That's a lot to pick from, and I'm sure up front, go ahead, something new, not the 500, movements do play tunes from this lesser known pool.

Even the oldies only nights have a pool of about 7000 pre 1980 quite well known tracks I read once (Tim Brown quote?)

No need for anybody to get fed up if they look hard enough.

Ed 

And there's still loads of tunes that are not on YouTube , so the only way to here them is to listen to a DJ who has them 🙂

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With the mountain of fantastic music available there should be no excuses for playing second rate rubbish.

 

the upfront crowd if we are going to use that term would also know pretty much every record at an oldies night.  But oldies fans would possibly hardly know anything in an upfront venue as they stopped searching out new records.

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32 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

There is no excuse for playing the same old same old unless it's a same old event.

I commented years ago that I look through Manships rare soul price guide and there's about 25000 singles listed, of which I knew only half at best, at that time.

Now today with the most fantastic thing invented for music in the last 25 years YOU TUBE and I can systematically check out the ones I don't know and rate them.

So for arguments sake, there's at least 12000 very playable tracks just on that list.

Then we have album tracks, everything after 1978 released, studio tapes, etc.

You get the point. Probably 20000 tracks that could be played and liked, and that's cutting out the mediocre the extreme the rock and roll the ska the deep funk etc. Just good soul records brown or blue eyed that can encourage a dance or two.

That's a lot to pick from, and I'm sure up front, go ahead, something new, not the 500, movements do play tunes from this lesser known pool.

Even the oldies only nights have a pool of about 7000 pre 1980 quite well known tracks I read once (Tim Brown quote?)

No need for anybody to get fed up if they look hard enough.

Ed 

some decent new stuff coming out, older scene may not like it but plenty of new dance-able, quality sounds being released

 

 

 

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For me, if the venue is advertised as anything goes, across the board, 1950s to present day, open minded, experimental, and a little bit of soul....

They can play anything and if the crowds keep coming, it's going to be a great success!

Its really all about the music policy.

I've seen a few members on here post up some specific hour long sets etc.

Maybe a few up frontiers can do the same and share the current floor fillers to spread the word...

Ed

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On 1/19/2018 at 15:58, chalky said:

The term came into being around the time Lifeline started.  It was used to differentiate the nighter(s) from the oldies all-nighters at the time. Not sure who came up with it.  It didn’t mean anyone particular genre. Lifeline was 60s and 70s generally.  The hard edged, funky stuff came a little later although it has always been there in the mix. 

Never really like the term but it became commonplace when referring to any venue that played something different to the top 500 or whatever.  

Its all rare soul to me. 

Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to contradict you Karl, but I first heard the word "upfront" used by Max Rees in the eighties or nineties.  Not relating to northern soul, but events with purist soul playlists including obscure new releases and quality little known oldies.  Probably what we would now call modern soul, but back then modern soul was mainly 70s stuff.  It was common at the time for flyers to have things like "upfront" or "real deal" on them to differentiate the style of music played.  Looking back, it probably had a lot to do with mainstream dance music moving away from it's black American roots.

I can see why the word "upfront" was used to describe the early Lifeline events, because they were hugely important events that (in my humble opinion) revitalised the scene and pushed things forward in a massive way.  That's not taking anything away from venues like the 100 club, which have nearly always been "upfront".

60s, 70s, 80s, or more recent....it was all disco music when it was made, and I love it all. :)

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On 19 January 2018 at 20:54, shufflin said:

back in early 2000's a record like this was considered 'up front' Northern - not anymore really as it's now on a Kent CD as a classy rarity  ;-)

 

Really? We all seemed to have a copy of this in the late mid 80s - it was part of the 'rhythm n soul' stuff we were into along with Big Daddy Rodgers, Henry Strogen (Misery), Billy Lamont (So Called Friend), Ronnie Forte and the like - didn't get played much and was easy to find (like BDR and RF) - but all my lot knew it down south.

Dx

Edited by DaveNPete

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