I've heard so many punters from the wheel and torch era say that it was never about rarity, and reference many common records and new releases that were played. When did rarity or perhaps exclusivity become of paramount importance in terms of northern soul? As I'm writing I'm questioning my motivation, recent discussions on trophy DJs and ego's dominating playlists. Tin hats on standby 😂

Give it a rest. This is turning into another BBC Proms thread. Think I'll duck out once again, it's getting boring.

On 13/08/2023 at 15:48, Geeselad said:

I've heard so many punters from the wheel and torch era say that it was never about rarity, and reference many common records and new releases that were played. When did rarity or perhaps exclusivity become of paramount importance in terms of northern soul? As I'm writing I'm questioning my motivation, recent discussions on trophy DJs and ego's dominating playlists. Tin hats on standby 😂

As this topic seems to go off-topic I will return to the original post.

Not sure what you mean by rarity? You mean collectors and/or punters more focused about the rarity of a record than its musical quality?

When it comes to exclusivity, I remember I once saw a pic of a late 1960's small ad of somebody offering 5 pounds (? not sure, pre-decimal times) for a copy of Chubby Checker - Discotheque on UK Cameo-Parkway. So even back then folks were willing to shell out to get tunes nobody or most didn't have.

6 hours ago, Roburt said:

Give it a rest. This is turning into another BBC Proms thread. Think I'll duck out once again, it's getting boring.

It’s you taking it way off topic again. 

On 16/08/2023 at 14:44, Kenb said:

more scarce than rare...although i accept they can and are often interchanged

Vert interchangeable and status can change fast 😉

Rare definition : Uncommon, extraordinary, rarefied.

Scarce definition : Short in supply, hard to find, rare.

11 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Vert interchangeable and status can change fast 😉

Rare definition : Uncommon, extraordinary, rarefied.

Scarce definition : Short in supply, hard to find, rare.

agree.

what i was driving at was e.g. Scarce : a 200-300 stock copy count all in collections. Rare: only 5-10 count known worldwide.

It probably became about rarity when the older djs dreamed up ovo to protect themselves on the scene from other people playing the same records and getting bookings.

 

If it was about the music 90 percent of sets could be played from mp3/cd hard drive and only the top collectors/  djs with the super rare acetate/ few known copies would need to be booked

1 hour ago, Kenb said:

agree.

what i was driving at was e.g. Scarce : a 200-300 stock copy count all in collections. Rare: only 5-10 count known worldwide.

Begging to have a quantifiable 'terminology based on an approximative estimation inventory of the 'rarest' (less than 5), 'very rare' (less than 50), 'rare' (less than 250), 'a bit rare' (less than 500); 'no that rare' (less than 1.000) and 'not rare' (plenty). While prices or market values (median auctions can be the measure of that) is something else indeed.

What was considered 'very rare' at first is sometimes not after a while once it's valued to change hands for 'appealing' amounts and come out of collections and into the 'light'. Or until a batch of NOS comes onto the market. To have a constant 'inventory' should determine that but IMO is not possible at all times ? To be approximative is good enough.

23 minutes ago, davidwapples said:

It probably became about rarity when the older djs dreamed up ovo to protect themselves on the scene from other people playing the same records and getting bookings.

 

If it was about the music 90 percent of sets could be played from mp3/cd hard drive and only the top collectors/  djs with the super rare acetate/ few known copies would need to be booked

The origin of cover-ups yes it's that. Plain and simple. Playing digital formats never. Why ? First because it's crap. It's the worst format when it comes to analog recordings, masterings and releases. Sounds poor, dull, cold and live less.

You might reply to me that most do's have bad sound systems anyway. So from bad to bad the gap if ever is not that big anymore. Like most collectors have unproper phono gear to play their rare records. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And if that argument 'if about the music' to explain why not the mp3's, then the same could have been asked about playing bootlegs, reissues and cassettes back in the seventies. But no. So there's more to it in this 'rare soul' scene.

OVO is / was the factor to keep it "real", going and very competitive between dee-jays. Too much ego at times and not only about music I agree. Still I'm one of those who will never agree to any concession about OVO for a proper nighter.

Because it was like that and it will stay like that. Because it forces the dee-jays to be creative with what they have achieve to gather, discover, collect and love. The difference between crate diggers and big ticket items deep-pockets.

The other things like scooterist Week enders, BBQs, youth-clubs, one deck at the end corner of the Pub or the Juke-Boxes are free to play whatever and I dig these with great pleasure. Never feeling bothered about the formats there.

Just like the best dee-jays are collectors all self-respected collectors will always vouch for OVO first. Bootlegs and reissues are fillers or last resorts hoping to be replaced. Choosing their pressings for rational or preferential reasons.

It was about rarity long before OVO was a thing

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

Begging to have a quantifiable 'terminology based on an approximative estimation inventory of the 'rarest' (less than 5), 'very rare' (less than 50), 'rare' (less than 250), 'a bit rare' (less than 500); 'no that rare' (less than 1.000) and 'not rare' (plenty). While prices or market values (median auctions can be the measure of that) is something else indeed.

What was considered 'very rare' at first is sometimes not after a while once it's valued to change hands for 'appealing' amounts and come out of collections and into the 'light'. Or until a batch of NOS comes onto the market. To have a constant 'inventory' should determine that but IMO is not possible at all times ? To be approximative is good enough.

So..Ralph has just posted (for sale) Dorothy Beery as rare £250. Is it rare or scarce, neither or both? And I’m not having a go at Ralph for his description, but it does normalise the term “rare” when perhaps it’s not.

Don't get Roburt started , lol 

2 hours ago, davidwapples said:

It probably became about rarity when the older djs dreamed up ovo to protect themselves on the scene from other people playing the same records and getting bookings.

 

If it was about the music 90 percent of sets could be played from mp3/cd hard drive and only the top collectors/  djs with the super rare acetate/ few known copies would need to be booked

😂 

59 minutes ago, Kenb said:

So..Ralph has just posted (for sale) Dorothy Beery as rare £250. Is it rare or scarce, neither or both? And I’m not having a go at Ralph for his description, but it does normalise the term “rare” when perhaps it’s not.

It’s always rare when you are selling something. 

Maybe best not to discuss Ralphs sales while he currently trying to sell the item! 

19 minutes ago, Solidsoul said:

Maybe best not to discuss Ralphs sales while he currently trying to sell the item! 

point taken...i should have used different examples. a bit lazy of me, and it just came up

52 minutes ago, Chalky said:

😂 

It’s always rare when you are selling something. 

yes- in the same way as you see so many selling Mint, Mint +, VG, VG, Ex+1.1 (🤨) palarva, etc, etc, etc. (Carolina Soul the exception i can think of instantly who grades just Good, etc often). 

5 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

The origin of cover-ups yes it's that. Plain and simple. Playing digital formats never. Why ? First because it's crap. It's the worst format when it comes to analog recordings, masterings and releases. Sounds poor, dull, cold and live less.

You might reply to me that most do's have bad sound systems anyway. So from bad to bad the gap if ever is not that big anymore. Like most collectors have unproper phono gear to play their rare records. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And if that argument 'if about the music' to explain why not the mp3's, then the same could have been asked about playing bootlegs, reissues and cassettes back in the seventies. But no. So there's more to it in this 'rare soul' scene.

OVO is / was the factor to keep it "real", going and very competitive between dee-jays. Too much ego at times and not only about music I agree. Still I'm one of those who will never agree to any concession about OVO for a proper nighter.

Because it was like that and it will stay like that. Because it forces the dee-jays to be creative with what they have achieve to gather, discover, collect and love. The difference between crate diggers and big ticket items deep-pockets.

The other things like scooterist Week enders, BBQs, youth-clubs, one deck at the end corner of the Pub or the Juke-Boxes are free to play whatever and I dig these with great pleasure. Never feeling bothered about the formats there.

Just like the best dee-jays are collectors all self-respected collectors will always vouch for OVO first. Bootlegs and reissues are fillers or last resorts hoping to be replaced. Choosing their pressings for rational or preferential reasons.

Apologies for going off topic a bit.
 

I agree. When I used to go out regularly, I could hear when someone was playing a carver or boot. The quality just dropped.

In my humble opinion, digitisation of music has been the worst thing to have happened. I can hear the difference when MP3’s are played.

 I refuse to use them and record all my vinyl onto WAV files.

 I’ve never tried playing my files through a big system, but would be interested in hearing it in comparison to playing vinyl.

Edited August 18, 20231 yr by Quinvy

An interesting read.

As someone who hasn't been near a club for 20yrs and who has never paid more than £70 for anything, but is happy to have/had many rare records on DVD/Tape.  I understand my view will be far from the norm.

As some have said hearing something different, was what initially attracted me to various different northern/soul clubs from 73 onwards. 

Many of these songs may have seemed rare at the time, but in truth were scarce.  This included many Cover Ups, something I never agreed with, due to the fact that whoever made the songs didn't do so to stay unknown.  Some of these were far from rare.

My personal take, is that rarity kicked in from Stafford onwards, when disposable incomes meant more collectors, not me I'm just a humble soul fan, started looking for rarities as they started to move beyond the 500.

Does it matter, no.  But as I said an interesting read from different perspectives.

 

 

2 hours ago, Quinvy said:

Apologies for going off topic a bit.
 

I agree. When I used to go out regularly, I could hear when someone was playing a carver or boot. The quality just dropped.

In my humble opinion, digitisation of music has been the worst thing to have happened. I can hear the difference when MP3’s are played.

 I refuse to use them and record all my vinyl onto WAV files.

 I’ve never tried playing my files through a big system, but would be interested in hearing it in comparison to playing vinyl.

In the Hi-Fi world there's no better. Only different. Many still prefer the analog experience. Most Hi-Fi critics dig both. Though it is generally acknowledge in that field that the best digital home gear is expensive. More than the analog.

What is critical if not crucial is the format of recording and mastering. So again analog recordings will never be better converted to digital. That is all our music before the ninety nineties and beyond. Even if properly re-mastered to digital.

Vice-versa very true also. Digital recordings aim for digital support. Vinyl releases of these is utter hipsterism nonsense stupidity. Any audio system big or small should be considered very differently. Especially at the amplifications stages.

Back on track. Have PM'ed you the rest. Yes I can also hear the differences. But beyond that is what can one dee-jay achieve to play creatively with all he has. Not like an old 'Soul Supply' or 'Goldmine' comp or YT on 'random' mode.

Edited August 18, 20231 yr by Tlscapital

Well I think ' rarity ' became a trend towards the end of the 80's possibly with the start of CDs and the Goldmine releases .

Nowadays rarity seems to be used instead of unavailability which are two completely different things just look at the Carstairs. 

20 minutes ago, Davey S said:

Well I think ' rarity ' became a trend towards the end of the 80's possibly with the start of CDs and the Goldmine releases .

Nowadays rarity seems to be used instead of unavailability which are two completely different things just look at the Carstairs. 

Rarity goes back well before the late 80s,a typical example is Ever Again.Djs wouldn't touch Gene Woodbury with a barge pole,it was either Bernie Williams or nothing.

Once you get to the classics, most aren’t rare, but are so popular that everyone wants to own them. Therefore they become scarce to obtain, but will be plentiful in Dj boxes and collections.

6 hours ago, Chalky said:

It was about rarity long before OVO was a thing

FWIW I was answering to the prior comment by comparing MP3's with OVO. And why keep it OVO. Bootlegs, reissues and mp3's all subjects to dislikes beyond 'pro-elitist' factor. Also because that's how it started and should last IMO. 

39 minutes ago, Quinvy said:

Once you get to the classics, most aren’t rare, but are so popular that everyone wants to own them. Therefore they become scarce to obtain, but will be plentiful in Dj boxes and collections.

The genuinely rarer ones - there were never enough copies for them to take off properly. Gwen & Ray, Eddie Rey, Eddie Daniels etc. 

The introduction of Acetates , by a few lucky Djs or one in particular, Betty Boo springs to mind ?

Not Emi discs pre Carvers etc 

Edited August 18, 20231 yr by Happy Feet

14 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

FWIW I was answering to the prior comment by comparing MP3's with OVO. And why keep it OVO. Bootlegs, reissues and mp3's all subjects to dislikes beyond 'pro-elitist' factor. Also because that's how it started and should last IMO. 

My bad, I was referring to the comment from davidwapples

On 16/08/2023 at 21:54, Benji said:

As this topic seems to go off-topic I will return to the original post.

Not sure what you mean by rarity? You mean collectors and/or punters more focused about the rarity of a record than its musical quality?

When it comes to exclusivity, I remember I once saw a pic of a late 1960's small ad of somebody offering 5 pounds (? not sure, pre-decimal times) for a copy of Chubby Checker - Discotheque on UK Cameo-Parkway. So even back then folks were willing to shell out to get tunes nobody or most didn't have.

I don't think the wheel or torch had a record bar, did they? When I started going nighters it seemed to me where the action was, as a music fan primary, obviously the dancefloor was important but perhaps less so than in the Wigan era. 

By rarity I do indeed mean more focused on rarity than quality at the expense of easily available but truly great northern records. Rarity+ quality, in terms of dancefloor appeal, seems to elevate a records status to mythical proportion. I've heard comments like; 'its just not rare enough to get played' hundreds of times over the years.

Since the 80's an unwritten rule seems to be; it has to be Rare, and good, obviously that's subjective ,so let say: good as in having dancefloor value, to get played at all on the scene. But it always starts with rarity or at the very least scarcity, it's a prerequisite. 

39 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

I don't think the wheel or torch had a record bar, did they? When I started going nighters it seemed to me where the action was, as a music fan primary, obviously the dancefloor was important but perhaps less so than in the Wigan era. 

By rarity I do indeed mean more focused on rarity than quality at the expense of easily available but truly great northern records. Rarity+ quality, in terms of dancefloor appeal, seems to elevate a records status to mythical proportion. I've heard comments like; 'its just not rare enough to get played' hundreds of times over the years.

Since the 80's an unwritten rule seems to be; it has to be Rare, and good, obviously that's subjective ,so let say: good as in having dancefloor value, to get played at all on the scene. But it always starts with rarity or at the very least scarcity, it's a prerequisite. 

So true.

It brings desirability into the equation i think.

There are rare and scarce 45's ('Northern') that don't get played because they're less desirable.

There are 'versions' that are scarce and rare of known tunes that don't get played BUT, the same known non-rare/non-scarce version of said tunes that do.

On 13/08/2023 at 20:43, Julianb said:

First cover ups I know about were done by Dave Godin. Via John Bollen ( and maybe Frannie O 'Brien) he sent up North, Ad libs nothing worse than being alone and Joy Lovejoy In Orbit. Played in Halifax at the Vic Lounge by Graham Slater and myself at Lord Jim's in Huddersfield.  Happy days.

Yes ,Dave Godin mentions in B & S about covering up a few records with white labels on a train trip to The Wheel ,as the punters expected some “ secret sounds “ from him .I think The Ad - Libs was one ,and Tommy Sears “ Get Out “ ( Chalet ) was another .Cheers Eddie 

Still got a Ray Avery list from 1972.  It’s got Leon Haywood. Baby reconsider on it 

On 24/08/2023 at 14:56, Dothe45 said:

Still got a Ray Avery list from 1972.  It’s got Leon Haywood. Baby reconsider on it 

Yes, Ray Avery had rare soul records, I just don't think the guys there realised they were rare (as jazz, do-wop & early R&B was their thing in the main). But any record shop, that hovered up local soul 45 releases like they did, would end up with lots of rare LA / Calif label stuff. I don't think they'd have been that great on rare Houston, Nashville, Chicago & Detroit labels though (unless they swopped 45's they had multiple copies of with similar shops in those cities).

Was this one of the first signs of interest in rare soul 45's in this country ...

.... letter written in Feb / March 1970; published by B&S in April 70 ... 

Edited September 15, 20231 yr by Roburt

On 13/08/2023 at 14:48, Geeselad said:

I've heard so many punters from the wheel and torch era say that it was never about rarity, and reference many common records and new releases that were played. When did rarity or perhaps exclusivity become of paramount importance terms of northern soul? As I'm writing I'm questioning my motivation, recent discussions on trophy DJs and ego's dominating playlists. Tin hats on standby 😂some people have an ear for good music and are happy to share it with as many people as possible . Some people hear music and want to acquire it keep it and be known for having something few others will have access or funds to own .I love having been out having heard fantastic music and knowing absolutely zilch about the music I heard . And there's others where thirty grands worth of music was played in the space of half an hour , and it bored me into stupor.  Some people play records as a medium to entertain others , like say . Ooh mark lammar. Jarvis Cocker , huey Morgan cerys Matthews and  whispering Bob Harris the blessed madonna. Or you could have fern bless her cotton, Craig Charles and Vanessa feltz and anneka rice. 

ou get me? No I'm not sure I did  either. .

 

, 

On 24/08/2023 at 10:33, Eddie Hubbard said:

Yes ,Dave Godin mentions in B & S about covering up a few records with white labels on a train trip to The Wheel ,as the punters expected some “ secret sounds “ from him .I think The Ad - Libs was one ,and Tommy Sears “ Get Out “ ( Chalet ) was another .Cheers Eddie 

Wasn't it Dave that said he was not into Rare records, he was into Good records!

A tale posted on FACEBOOK by Neil Rushton ...   GETTING LUCKY @ a 'cheapie' UK 45 seller ... 

 . . . . .   I found my first copy (of LOU RAGLAND'S "I Travel Alone") in the late 1970s.

At the time I was running a Soul records wholesale business in funky Walsall and was always looking for stock. Most of it came from the U.S.A but other suppliers were much closer, especially Oldies Unlimited at St.Georges near Telford. Bill Baker and myself used to regularly nip down the A5 to deal with Anthony Lewis, the owner, who was great but quirky (for instance if I asked for x amount of copies of a single Anthony would invariably count out so many inches rather than count the amount).

Oldies Unlimited imported huge amounts of records from the USA and Bill and myself would buy quantities of recent promos, cut outs and sometimes quite astonishing finds (best ever was 200 copies of Bill Brandon “The Streets Got My Lady”.

Everyone on the Soul scene was aware of Anthony but he was always good to me as I had been buying from him by mail order when I was at school when he was based in Kent (?)and he often mentioned that.

Anyway one afternoon he told Bill and myself that we would be allowed to look for records in one of the

former chapels in the grounds of his base. We were met by a carpet of records on the floor and shelves full of them on the side. We started wading through and found some good stuff but nothing amazing, not all the singles were Soul.

Anyway I slipped while reaching for the shelves and ended up lying on my back on top of the deep pile of records covering the floor, Naturally as I pulled myself up I pulled a handful records from where my right hand had landed. Two out of three were county and western, and the third - a stone mint copy of “I Travel Alone” - Lou Ragland. To add to the shock only either demos or issues (I can’t remember which)had turned up in the UK by then and the copy in my hand was the format that was unknown at the time.

As a lot of people I got into it very early on.i buy tunes now because it reminds me of a certain place I went so memories are a big point for me .I've been as far as Australia in 88 so a few tunes we play automatically reminded me of there.but cost and rarety are a factor now but not back then .but if you like a certain tune and when it comes up for sale as my gran used to say ,CUT YOUR CLOTH ACCORDING TO YOUR PURSE