Valise-johnny Watson

[Ady Croasdell]

'It's Better To Cry' is it kosher or a recent press of an old tape? If so by whom?

[Dave Rimmer]

'It's Better To Cry' is it kosher or a recent press of an old tape? If so by whom?

From memory, recent press of an old tape by the label owner.

[Nick Hackett]

'It's Better To Cry' is it kosher or a recent press of an old tape? If so by whom?

I always believed it was a recent pressing Ady.

Didnt it sell originally for quit a few quid,then someone made a few enquires then hey presto a load more turned up and sold for a fraction of the price.

[Kev Moore]

From memory, recent press of an old tape by the label owner.

I bought mine about 8 yrs ago. I was led to believe they were boots made up from a tape. Always thought it was the most expensive boot I ever paid for £60 (that I know of ha ha.) But I think they were going for a lot more when they first came out.

Great version though.

Kev

Edited November 25, 2008 by Kev Moore

[Ady Croasdell]

I bought mine about 8 yrs ago. I was led to believe they were boots made up from a tape. Always thought it was the most expensive boot I ever paid for £60 (that I know of ha ha.) But I think they were going for a lot more when they first came out.

Great version though.

Kev

I can ask the label owner. Where did they originally appear and subsequently flood out from?

[Kev Moore]

I can ask the label owner. Where did they originally appear and subsequently flood out from?

Not too sure Adey. Mine came from Our Dave. I hink he told me the story but I can't remember. why not pm him?

Kev

[KevH]

JM's got the release date as '99,nice tune.Heard the same, taken from the owner's recording.

[Guest Johnny Mack]

Las Vegas from what I can recall.

I can ask the label owner. Where did they originally appear and subsequently flood out from?

[Benji]

I can ask the label owner. Where did they originally appear and subsequently flood out from?

I don't about the first few copies that came on the market, but the first large batch was sold by that Las Vegas dealer who also sold all these Prix stuff, was that Rich Rosen? Ebay ID Brooklynborn or so?

[Guest]

Las Vegas from what I can recall.

They were apparently pressed by David Blake owner of Valise records, on the request of a very nice man from Cumbria. Who mistakenly charged over £1k for the first 3 copies,apparently he forgot he had a few 100 made.

An easy error to make, Tim Ashibende kindly pointed out his mistake to him and then they ended up on the market at all sorts of prices.. we sell it for £20 or less.

I think you're right the bulk ended up being sold to a dealer in Vegas.

[Jim Elliott]

Tremendous side, a tad better than the Appreciations (IMHO). Mine was a £50 touch from a very nice chap from the Nottingham area.

Also, whats the story with 'Is this the real thing' by the same dude on the same label 'released' at the same time?

Jim

[Dave Moore]

They were apparently pressed by David Blake owner of Valise records, on the request of a very nice man from Cumbria. Who mistakenly charged over £1k for the first 3 copies,apparently he forgot he had a few 100 made.

An easy error to make, Tim Ashibende kindly pointed out his mistake to him and then they ended up on the market at all sorts of prices.. we sell it for £20 or less.

I think you're right the bulk ended up being sold to a dealer in Vegas.

Was the pressed up again on coloured (red/brown?) vinyl to met the 'demand' wasn't it?

[Dave Thorley]

They were apparently pressed by David Blake owner of Valise records, on the request of a very nice man from Cumbria. Who mistakenly charged over £1k for the first 3 copies,apparently he forgot he had a few 100 made.

An easy error to make, Tim Ashibende kindly pointed out his mistake to him and then they ended up on the market at all sorts of prices.. we sell it for £20 or less.

I think you're right the bulk ended up being sold to a dealer in Vegas.

Wasn't this the same guy who sold re-presses of Fab Vagas at a large amount, forgetting he had had them pressed. Also in conjuction with the nice dealer in Vagas, or is that a urban myth.

Also the nice dealer man in Vagas, was so concerned that the UK scene got copies of The Ringleaders, Toby Bullard, Visions, Towana Barnes that he re-pressed these as well, but forgot in all his rush to ask the original label owner for permission. An easy mistake to make really, but nice of him to be thinking of us.

[Guest]

Wasn't this the same guy who sold re-presses of Fab Vagas at a large amount, forgetting he had had them pressed. Also in conjuction with the nice dealer in Vagas, or is that a urban myth.

Also the nice dealer man in Vagas, was so concerned that the UK scene got copies of The Ringleaders, Toby Bullard, Visions, Towana Barnes that he re-pressed these as well, but forgot in all his rush to ask the original label owner for permission. An easy mistake to make really, but nice of him to be thinking of us.

Dave,

I still have not seen any proof of the Fab Vegas 45 being repressed or bootlegged. I had one of the first originals (via Henry Atkinson) and have recently been sent a copy of a Fab Vegas that was found before the batch came on the market (Soul Sams ex-copy), there is no difference, to those i've had from the load that materialised.

If someone has a copy that seems to be a REPRO, please can you let me see it. As at the moment the only only copies I'ver seen have all been originals.

john

[Guest in town Mikey]

Wasn't this the same guy who sold re-presses of Fab Vagas at a large amount, forgetting he had had them pressed. Also in conjuction with the nice dealer in Vagas, or is that a urban myth.

Also the nice dealer man in Vagas, was so concerned that the UK scene got copies of The Ringleaders, Toby Bullard, Visions, Towana Barnes that he re-pressed these as well, but forgot in all his rush to ask the original label owner for permission. An easy mistake to make really, but nice of him to be thinking of us.

Didnt the confusion over the Oxford Knights stem from Vegas as well? Or is my mind playing yet more tricks?

[Ady Croasdell]

Was the pressed up again on coloured (red/brown?) vinyl to met the 'demand' wasn't it?

Could anyone confirm that this happened? Like they've seen a copy.

Ady

[Dave Moore]

Definite Ady. Saw them for sale from same source.

[Ady Croasdell]

Definite Ady. Saw them for sale from same source.

Thanks Dave,

Ady

[Dave Pinch]

DID ANYBODY ACTUALLY HAVE A FAB VEGAS 45 IN THE 70S OR 80S? OR IS IT ANOTHER 10 YEAR OLD RELEASE FROM AN OLD TAPE

DAVE

[Ady Croasdell]

Tremendous side, a tad better than the Appreciations (IMHO). Mine was a £50 touch from a very nice chap from the Nottingham area.

Also, whats the story with 'Is this the real thing' by the same dude on the same label 'released' at the same time?

Jim

I don't know anything about a second release on JW on Valise, can anyone enlighten me.

Also what's the theory on the Appreciations being on Sport a Detroit label innit?

[Dave Pinch]

I don't know anything about a second release on JW on Valise, can anyone enlighten me.

Also what's the theory on the Appreciations being on Sport a Detroit label innit?

i ve heard that the appreciations its better to cry on sport is not actually them at all and not even a detroit recording. any body else heard anything or is that rumour total bollox

[Benji]

I don't know anything about a second release on JW on Valise, can anyone enlighten me.

Here's a quote from Dave Rimmers JW discography:

Valise 6915 - Is This The Real Thing / Give A Damn - 1998 Although originally recorded some years earlier, these singles were unreleased until the late Nineties when the label owner was persuaded to press copies up for the Northern Soul scene.

[Dave Moore]

i ve heard that the appreciations its better to cry on sport is not actually them at all and not even a detroit recording. any body else heard anything or is that rumour total bollox

Hi Dave,

Who, Where, How, What makes you think it's not them or that it's not a Detroit recording? I've always loved this version and never imagined it not being a Detroit recording. Any info appreciated.

[Tony Smith]

I don't know anything about a second release on JW on Valise, can anyone enlighten me.

Also what's the theory on the Appreciations being on Sport a Detroit label innit?

This has been discussed before here or maybe on SoulTalk, members of the Tempests on backing a Carolinas recording along with I Can't Hide It".

[Dave Moore]

This has been discussed before here or maybe on SoulTalk, members of the Tempests on backing a Carolinas recording along with I Can't Hide It".

Hi Tony,

Got a link or owt Mate?

[Ady Croasdell]

Hi Dave,

Who, Where, How, What makes you think it's not them or that it's not a Detroit recording? I've always loved this version and never imagined it not being a Detroit recording. Any info appreciated.

Sorry i may have jumped to the conclusion too quickly. It's just that It's Better To Cry was written by Dave Blake and Frankie Nieves for Phil Medley's Starflower set up which is all totally NYC. I'm waiting on a reply from Dave about it, it could just have been that the song was picked up by the Detroit people.

Mel from Ormskirk mentioned the Tempests backing them on Soul Talk, I have no idea where he got that from.

[Tony Smith]

Sorry i may have jumped to the conclusion too quickly. It's just that It's Better To Cry was written by Dave Blake and Frankie Nieves for Phil Medley's Starflower set up which is all totally NYC. I'm waiting on a reply from Dave about it, it could just have been that the song was picked up by the Detroit people.

Mel from Ormskirk mentioned the Tempests backing them on Soul Talk, I have no idea where he got that from.

There was an article in one of the mags, SKM, Shades? can't remember which, Barrie Waddington had some info he'd got from a couple of thr band memebers years back. I'll drop him a line.

[Dave Moore]

There was an article in one of the mags, SKM, Shades? can't remember which, Barrie Waddington had some info he'd got from a couple of thr band memebers years back. I'll drop him a line.

Excellent! Coincidentaly, I picked up Appreciations I Can't Hide It - Aware from Barrie on Friday......ain't that spooky! If someone tells me that the bari sax break on the 45 is some South Carolina beatnick, my 'flabber' will be well and truly 'gasted'!! Always had it (and my lugs still tell me), Mr Terry all the way. Look forward to some definitive info.

[boba]

Excellent! Coincidentaly, I picked up Appreciations I Can't Hide It - Aware from Barrie on Friday......ain't that spooky! If someone tells me that the bari sax break on the 45 is some South Carolina beatnick, my 'flabber' will be well and truly 'gasted'!! Always had it (and my lugs still tell me), Mr Terry all the way. Look forward to some definitive info.

it is a south carolina GROUP though, probably recorded in detroit.

[Dave Moore]

it is a south carolina GROUP though, probably recorded in detroit.

Hi Bob,

I'm hoping to hear DEFINITELY recorded in Detroit otherwise I'm gonna need a visit to the earwax cleaner outerer!

[Gene-R]

Could anyone confirm that this happened? Like they've seen a copy.

Ady

Hi Ady,

I bought a red vinyl copy in January 2001 (on Ebay, but can't remember the seller). Was $40 at the time. Unfortunately I moved it on a couple of years ago, so can't supply a scan.

Gene

Edited December 1, 2008 by Gene-R

[Dave Thorley]

Dave,

I still have not seen any proof of the Fab Vegas 45 being repressed or bootlegged. I had one of the first originals (via Henry Atkinson) and have recently been sent a copy of a Fab Vegas that was found before the batch came on the market (Soul Sams ex-copy), there is no difference, to those i've had from the load that materialised.

If someone has a copy that seems to be a REPRO, please can you let me see it. As at the moment the only only copies I'ver seen have all been originals.

john

Hi John

So the Fab Vagas is clearly a urban myth, I stand corrected. Still does change the fact that dear old Richie does have so very dodgy looking things for sale. I know he has found some awesome originals in his time, but he does like the old bootlegs.

Dave

Dave

[Steve G]

Hi John

So the Fab Vagas is clearly a urban myth, I stand corrected. Still does change the fact that dear old Richie does have so very dodgy looking things for sale. I know he has found some awesome originals in his time, but he does like the old bootlegs.

Dave

Dave

John knows I have seen two copies together and they looked different. However as it was a fleeting moment at the record room in Clee I cannot confirm what the differences are now. But we came to the conclusion something was awry.

As for the Johnny Watson, here I heard the exact same as relayed by JM. Even down to Tim A having to point out the "error" in the pricing after a certain Todmorden DJ and a couple of others had shelled out a considerable sum.

Being slightly naive you would think it would be quite easy to tell a recent press from a legit 60s one.

[boba]

Hi John

So the Fab Vagas is clearly a urban myth, I stand corrected. Still does change the fact that dear old Richie does have so very dodgy looking things for sale. I know he has found some awesome originals in his time, but he does like the old bootlegs.

Dave

Dave

the person selling on ebay is not rich rosen, rich rosen rarely sells on ebay

[Newer]

Bought mine from that Brooklyborn guy a year or 2 after it had come down in price, I cant remember exactly how much but it would have been less that $40 and it is black vinyl.

He also had the other release for sale but I didnt buy it. That was less money, $20 rings a bell as if I remember correctly it is a lot slower tune.

[Guest soulmaguk]

scan

[Guest soulmaguk]

scan

[Ady Croasdell]

Thanks peoples. Tim had met David blake some years previously so perhaps he was helping him clear the mess up.

[Benji]

Being slightly naive you would think it would be quite easy to tell a recent press from a legit 60s one.

I'd thinks so too, but it appears that some so called collectors know FA apart from the difference between 7" and 12" records.

[Benji]

the person selling on ebay is not rich rosen, rich rosen rarely sells on ebay

Yes but the person selling on Ebay (Brooklynborn, forgot his real name) is connected to Rich Rosen in a way. That was confirmed when the Johnny Watson repros came on the market.

By the way, who was "the guy from Cumbria" mentioned earlier that flogged the first copies for over a grand?

[NEV]

Wasn't this the same guy who sold re-presses of Fab Vagas at a large amount, forgetting he had had them pressed. Also in conjuction with the nice dealer in Vagas, or is that a urban myth.

Also the nice dealer man in Vagas, was so concerned that the UK scene got copies of The Ringleaders, Toby Bullard, Visions, Towana Barnes that he re-pressed these as well, but forgot in all his rush to ask the original label owner for permission. An easy mistake to make really, but nice of him to be thinking of us.

And unless im mistaken ..same guy who just sold Sensations-Demanding man last week (do hope for buyers sake it's original)

Now under the username of Mischino

Still doing the Toby Bullard, ringleaders ,towanda Barnes and also Sn francisco tko's-make up your mind!

[Steve G]

I'd thinks so too, but it appears that some so called collectors know FA apart from the difference between 7" and 12" records.

How true is that!!!

[Benji]

Yes but the person selling on Ebay (Brooklynborn, forgot his real name) is connected to Rich Rosen in a way. That was confirmed when the Johnny Watson repros came on the market.

He's mentioned here as well https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...st&p=939557

real name Joe Giattano

[Neil Rushton]

Hi Dave,

Who, Where, How, What makes you think it's not them or that it's not a Detroit recording? I've always loved this version and never imagined it not being a Detroit recording. Any info appreciated.

I was surprised on the Tuff City "The Northern Souljers Meet Hi-Rhythm" LP to read that tracks released on Detroit labels by Appreciations, Master Keys, Persians, Buddy Lamp, Lee Rogers, Fabulous Peps and Al Gardner were recorded in Memphis between 1965 and 1968 and not in Detroit ...the album is the one with the Don Bryant demos of "A Place in My Heart", "Weak & Broken Hearted" and "Talkin' About That Girl Of Mine".

In a similair vein when interviewing George McGregor for The Joe Boy Precisions album he recounted how he took Timmy Willis to Muscle Shoals to get the sound he wanted on "Mr Soul Satisfaction".

By the way has anyone for got sale a copy of The Fabulous Peps album Tuff City put out? They only have CD available on web site and I want the vinyl?

.

[Dave Moore]

I was surprised on the Tuff City "The Northern Souljers Meet Hi-Rhythm" LP to read that tracks released on Detroit labels by Appreciations, Master Keys, Persians, Buddy Lamp, Lee Rogers, Fabulous Peps and Al Gardner were recorded in Memphis between 1965 and 1968 and not in Detroit ...the album is the one with the Don Bryant demos of "A Place in My Heart", "Weak & Broken Hearted" and "Talkin' About That Girl Of Mine".

In a similair vein when interviewing George McGregor for The Joe Boy Precisions album he recounted how he took Timmy Willis to Muscle Shoals to get the sound he wanted on "Mr Soul Satisfaction".

By the way has anyone for got sale a copy of The Fabulous Peps album Tuff City put out? They only have CD available on web site and I want the vinyl?

.

Now we're getting somewhere. So, a Carolina based group (Appreciations), recording a NY song in Memphis, that gained a release on a Detroit (albeit NY distributed) label! There's GOT to be a conduit/connection here somewhere?

Any chance of you transcribing the GM interview Neil? If so give me a shout Mate and we'll feature it in There's That Beat!