Which  of the Grapevine singles could you play at an ovo soul night?

Without having your knuckles rapped by the soul police.

Bettye Boo "Say it isnt so" Any others?

1 hour ago, Tobytyke said:

Which  of the Grapevine singles could you play at an ovo soul night?

Without having your knuckles rapped by the soul police.

Bettye Boo "Say it isnt so" Any others?

"Destroy That Boy" The Happy Cats.  A great record and dancer that was unreleased on an original label. 

"Rosemary What Happened" Richard Wylie as the Grapevine release is a better unreleased cut, and I think a better cut than the Karen original.

This yellow Grapevine series is the true Casino Classics label, as every release was based on records that were being played at the Casino nighters.

Edited April 1Apr 1 by Solidsoul

Carol Anderson - Sad Girl.

Both the FEE original and Grapevine single were released in 1979. 

So..........  no idea !!!

Flaming Emeralds FEE original released just a year before Grapevine.

Betty Boo - say it isn't so 

Barons Of Soul?

If ok to play one it's must be OK to play all of them but you struggled to give them away mid 80s most in the £1 sales box? Who times and standards have changed over the years. 

10 hours ago, Mick Boyle said:

Barons Of Soul?

Good point mick.

That's from the Grapevine 2K series isnt it?

Must be a few of those that could be played.....Eddie Holman for example.

13 hours ago, Rhino said:

If ok to play one it's must be OK to play all of them but you struggled to give them away mid 80s most in the £1 sales box? Who times and standards have changed over the years. 

The point is, that if it was unreleased before the Grapevine legal UK issue there is no other legitimate way to play it, so Grapevine becomes the first release.

In the USA by 1970, you would have struggled to give any  deleted record away for a £1 but that doesn't make them worthless now.

Edited April 2Apr 2 by Solidsoul

I guess with them all being legit UK releases they are all ok to play if you so wish.  Scene etiquette however, the unwritten rules, is you don’t play those with an original US release.

Karl was it popcorn willie that had one of the grapevine releases stop as he owned the rights ? Remember the story but cant remember which single it was ? 

I know someone who played the whole lot as his set years ago at an all dayer, went down a storm. 

3 hours ago, Rhino said:

Karl was it popcorn willie that had one of the grapevine releases stop as he owned the rights ? Remember the story but cant remember which single it was ? 

THE ONLY ONE I KNOW THAT WAS STOPPED WAS ANN SEXTON YOU'VE BEEN GONE TOO LONG 

Edited April 2Apr 2 by Steviehay

5 hours ago, Chalky said:

I guess with them all being legit UK releases they are all ok to play if you so wish.  Scene etiquette however, the unwritten rules, is you don’t play those with an original US release.

And there's your answer.

Chalky correct, nail on the head...it's about records getting a legitimate first release in this country and yes of course, if the American release came first then it's de facto that is the copt to play....but everyone and their finances, are different....a 2hole heap of wanted tunes exist in minute quantities....and if the chances are, the average aspiring dj is never going to be able to afford the rocking-horse rare, theyre going to see what's on offer legitimately.

A super rare, but universally appreciated tune, can only be played in so many places in one time, but if it get's a legit uk issue ( and any parties or estates benefit from royalties or a windfall from sales ), in essence, it's helping to spread the word and popularity....and at the same time, as the global market is showing, the originals are no being devalued...like how folk maybe thought in the mid 70's and 80's...because theyre now ' antiques ' their values have increased substantially.

Everybody's thought dna is different on this subject...isn't it a win-win circumstance if some long forgotten artist is actually getting their music played, and appreciated by a whole bunch of folk?, they may have failed monetarily, but the sound they created, didn't.

 

the uk releases we've witnessed this last quarter century are as important as the one's soulies and mods alike, chased in the 60's....the 70's was important becahse it began the process of issukng tunes here, that actually never got a look in, or weren't discovered/known about 7 or 8 years previous.

They all have their worth, whichever way we look at it.

 

4 hours ago, Rhino said:

Karl was it popcorn willie that had one of the grapevine releases stop as he owned the rights ? Remember the story but cant remember which single it was ? 

I’m not sure mate. I know Popcorn worked closely with grapevine and they were still issuing his material until a few years ago.

For me if a record is released because of demand by the Northern scene, then it shouldn't be played end of.

British releases that were released not for the NS but because they had the rights, for example Rufus Lumley "I'm Standing" on Stateside are perfectly acceptable to be played. 

I know some would even frown upon White label Motown pressings being played when there's a real acetate in someone's collection, like Gladys Knight "Too late"

I think the days of any elitism regarding OVO and the like are disappearing fast outside of a very few venues.

I'm not condoning it for a second , but the vast majority of punters these days at the myriad of 'cheap beer and ample parking' soul do's littering the Events section these days probably don't even know the name of the tune they're strutting their YT taught line-dancing moves to , let alone what label it's on ... 

 

Exactly.  I,m sure the up and coming  Bristol soul are only interested in how fast it is ! 
 

55 minutes ago, Woodbutcher said:

I think the days of any elitism regarding OVO and the like are disappearing fast outside of a very few venues.

I'm not condoning it for a second , but the vast majority of punters these days at the myriad of 'cheap beer and ample parking' soul do's littering the Events section these days probably don't even know the name of the tune they're strutting their YT taught line-dancing moves to , let alone what label it's on ... 

 

I thought the original question was Which  of the Grapevine singles could you play at an OVO soul night?

Without having your knuckles rapped by the soul police.

That's why I gave my answer that none of the Grapevine 1st series releases should be played now at an OVO soul night.

1 minute ago, Jessie Pinkman said:

I thought the original question was Which  of the Grapevine singles could you play at an OVO soul night?

Without having your knuckles rapped by the soul police.

That's why I gave my answer that none of the Grapevine 1st series releases should be played now at an OVO soul night.

Very sorry for voicing an opinion Chief Superintendent ... 

2 minutes ago, Woodbutcher said:

Very sorry for voicing an opinion Chief Superintendent ... 

You don't have to apologise to me mate. I was just pointing out the original question👌

6 hours ago, Steviehay said:

I know someone who played the whole lot as his set years ago at an all dayer, went down a storm. 

THE ONLY ONE I KNOW THAT WAS STOPPED WAS ANN SEXTON YOU'VE BEEN GONE TOO LONG 

Although Ann Sexton did get a UK release on 'Inferno' during 1979.

Edited April 2Apr 2 by Soul-slider

Just now, Soul-slider said:

Although Ann Sexton did get a UK release on 'Inferno' during 1979.

Yes but not grapevine it was pulled 

3 hours ago, Jessie Pinkman said:

I thought the original question was Which  of the Grapevine singles could you play at an OVO soul night?

Without having your knuckles rapped by the soul police.

That's why I gave my answer that none of the Grapevine 1st series releases should be played now at an OVO soul night.

So you are saying Bettye Boo ,Carol Anderson and Flaming Emeralds on respect of the original question are a no.

Thanks.

1 hour ago, Tobytyke said:

So you are saying Bettye Boo ,Carol Anderson and Flaming Emeralds on respect of the original question are a no.

Thanks.

Toby I've already given you my opinion, If you don't agree with it then that's okay, I take from your question you're okay playing these 3 records on Grapevine at a OVO night. 

Having attended my 1st soul clubs in 65 & going to niter clubs from 66, I never did get the OVO thing at all. We'd have danced to any version of a 'top soul sound' back in the day ... ... ...

coz it was what was 'in the grooves' that counted, not where & when those grooves had left the pressing plant.

Mind you, dancing to lots of the pop sh*te spun @ the Casino I would have a lot of trouble with. 

First uk issue then play them

If someone else there has the us release then let them play them

Unreleased before then play whatever

It's a free country u play what u want 

12 minutes ago, Wiganer1 said:

It's a free country u play what u want 

What at a advertised Original Vinyl Only soul night. Really is that where were at nowadays. F**K it lets play what we want, whatever label it's on.🤔

Edited April 3Apr 3 by Jessie Pinkman

If in doubt don't play em, there is thousands upon thousands of Northern records to go at without having to play any records that the poster seems to think needs authorisation to play.

I can see it now, who needs Butch, Ted, Sam, when we can get most of their records on a look a like bootleg. Who fancies going down that slippery slope.

If it is previously unreleased then it is fine IMO why deprive anyone of great soul music? If it’s reissued for the scene decades later where original issues exist from the time then a big no no from me. 

A few years back I was asked why I was playing Cliff Nobles OLIGS on Atlantic at an ovo night as first release was on VJ by an acquittance so no malice intended (I think) Obviously we went through the local / national release thing but he was still objective.

I said if I was to offer you the Ivories on Despenza or Wand which would you want and he said Wand as its so much rarer. He then agreed that both local / national releases are ok to play.

We went on to agree that records made deliberately for the northern scene should not be played at an ovo event UNLESS unreleased like Grapevines Barons Of Soul & Eddie Holman. Were not the soul police so who cares what we came up with.

Yes I run an ovo event but I attend events without worrying what there policy is. So in my opinion some grapevine are ok but not all.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mick Boyle said:

A few years back I was asked why I was playing Cliff Nobles OLIGS on Atlantic at an ovo night as first release was on VJ by an acquittance so no malice intended (I think) Obviously we went through the local / national release thing but he was still objective.

I said if I was to offer you the Ivories on Despenza or Wand which would you want and he said Wand as its so much rarer. He then agreed that both local / national releases are ok to play.

We went on to agree that records made deliberately for the northern scene should not be played at an ovo event UNLESS unreleased like Grapevines Barons Of Soul & Eddie Holman. Were not the soul police so who cares what we came up with.

Yes I run an ovo event but I attend events without worrying what there policy is. So in my opinion some grapevine are ok but not all.

 

 

 

Some people have no idea and shouldn’t be allowed out

Until around 1969, import soul 45's were quite hard to come by (hence Ian L becoming the big 'I AM' when he brought his big Florida haul back to the UK). You could get a few from Soul City's shop (if you were quick, as they only bought a handful of each title) or you might pick one up off a specialist dealer via their mailed-out auction lists ahead of 69.

But access to cheap US import soul 45's only really became really possible from 69 when F L Moore (Leighton Buzzard) joined the game. So till then, 99% of soul 45's played in clubs were UK released things (or US copies ofknown UK released things now deleted that you'd sent away to Ray Averys or Randys for). Jay Boy came into life in 68 but only started putting out NS sounds in 71. They were played though. Earlier (66, 68, 69) the likes of President & Sue were re-releasing things here and those 2nd issues were all played. 

So just when did OVO become the norm ? ... After all the NS reissues started making the charts I guess. That started from 71 but I can't recall OVO ever raising it's head till much later in the 70's (after 77 ?).  

27 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Until around 1969, import soul 45's were quite hard to come by (hence Ian L becoming the big 'I AM' when he brought his big Florida haul back to the UK). You could get a few from Soul City's shop (if you were quick, as they only bought a handful of each title) or you might pick one up off a specialist dealer via their mailed-out auction lists ahead of 69.

But access to cheap US import soul 45's only really became really possible from 69 when F L Moore (Leighton Buzzard) joined the game. So till then, 99% of soul 45's played in clubs were UK released things (or US copies ofknown UK released things now deleted that you'd sent away to Ray Averys or Randys for). Jay Boy came into life in 68 but only started putting out NS sounds in 71. They were played though. Earlier (66, 68, 69) the likes of President & Sue were re-releasing things here and those 2nd issues were all played. 

So just when did OVO become the norm ? ... After all the NS reissues started making the charts I guess. That started from 71 but I can't recall OVO ever raising it's head till much later in the 70's (after 77 ?).  

The earliest boots I remember specifically for the Northern market was OOTP & Soul Sounds.

Made up mainly by popular titles being played at the Wheel

Edited April 3Apr 3 by Jessie Pinkman

Yes, and the Tami Lynn on Soul Sounds (70) was played in clubs, just as the UK black Atlantic (66) and Mojo (71) versions were.

OVO means if I go to a venue, the DJ's have experience, knowledge and have shown some commitment in getting the records together.

Otherwise it might be someone who has learned what to play off the internet and bought a lot of repros and reissues to DJ with. They don't have much experience and knowledge and have shown very little commitment. They might know what to play, but they don't know why!

Edited April 3Apr 3 by Solidsoul

On 01/04/2025 at 07:50, Tobytyke said:

Which  of the Grapevine singles could you play at an ovo soul night?

Without having your knuckles rapped by the soul police.

Bettye Boo "Say it isnt so" Any others?

If it’s a paying gig, then only the previously unissued ones.

It’s not fair to charge people money to get in to a night where they’re not hearing original music.

If it’s a pub do plenty of parking and free to get in, play whatever you like.

I find this kind of topic infuriating why ? 

From the Halcyon days of the Casino ( I picked this one in particular because it was rife )

Stafford (not as bad but it did happen) 

100 Club ( 80s it did happen) 

Lots of Djs would play a record , when it took off , sell it and just before have an Emidisc. cut and play it untill it was booted .

There was quite a few Emidiscs cut and made to look like Acetates , nobody batted an eyelid & the only thing that mattered was dance floor reaction.

Nowadays it seems that the so called Soul Police , insist a record is only played if it is played on the first possible release . That would be a test pressing or promo surely . None of this , stock copy , first issue bollocks , that is surely one day going to finish off the scene because the younger generation have no chance of ever owning an original copy in any format unless , they remortgage ( if they can afford a mortgage in the 1st place ) so if not an Acetate , no record can be an original ????  

Edited April 3Apr 3 by Happy Feet

🤔

Edited April 4Apr 4 by Jessie Pinkman

8 hours ago, Happy Feet said:

I find this kind of topic infuriating why ? 

From the Halcyon days of the Casino ( I picked this one in particular because it was rife )

Stafford (not as bad but it did happen) 

100 Club ( 80s it did happen) 

Lots of Djs would play a record , when it took off , sell it and just before have an Emidisc. cut and play it untill it was booted .

There was quite a few Emidiscs cut and made to look like Acetates , nobody batted an eyelid & the only thing that mattered was dance floor reaction.

Nowadays it seems that the so called Soul Police , insist a record is only played if it is played on the first possible release . That would be a test pressing or promo surely . None of this , stock copy , first issue bollocks , that is surely one day going to finish off the scene because the younger generation have no chance of ever owning an original copy in any format unless , they remortgage ( if they can afford a mortgage in the 1st place ) so if not an Acetate , no record can be an original ????  

Back in the day records were genuinely scarce and yes cuts were made and given out to Djs to break a sound. Today there is no need whatsoever to play anything other than an original as copies of most of the big rare records are with the DJs. If you can’t do it properly don’t bother at all, there are enough out there who can. 
I can’t believe we still having this discussion these days, it’s been done to death. 

8 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Back in the day records were genuinely scarce and yes cuts were made and given out to Djs to break a sound. Today there is no need whatsoever to play anything other than an original as copies of most of the big rare records are with the DJs. If you can’t do it properly don’t bother at all, there are enough out there who can. 
I can’t believe we still having this discussion these days, it’s been done to death. 

Yes , but I'm not talking about cuts made & distributed , I'm talking of individual djs who did it on a regular basis , selling on the original & then playing Emidiscs cut to fool the audience/ dance floor , or who just played Emidiscs , made to look like Acetates .

Pre Internet, yes a lot of records where thought to be scarce .

1 hour ago, Happy Feet said:

Yes , but I'm not talking about cuts made & distributed , I'm talking of individual djs who did it on a regular basis , selling on the original & then playing Emidiscs cut to fool the audience/ dance floor , or who just played Emidiscs , made to look like Acetates .

Pre Internet, yes a lot of records where thought to be scarce .

But my point is what happened then bears no resemblance to now.  EMI discs of rare records of were always played. A one off at the time was cut and played at Stafford because the collector who owned the original didn’t want to sell but the dancers weren’t deprived of the record. BITD a bootleg would kill a current play, nowadays just about every record is bootlegged or cut without damage to the originals status. 

On 04/04/2025 at 09:21, Chalky said:

But my point is what happened then bears no resemblance to now.  EMI discs of rare records of were always played. A one off at the time was cut and played at Stafford because the collector who owned the original didn’t want to sell but the dancers weren’t deprived of the record. BITD a bootleg would kill a current play, nowadays just about every record is bootlegged or cut without damage to the originals status. 

2 x weeks ago a Temptones Emidisc played by a prominent Dj BITD was auctioned on ebay with a few others , it fetched over £50 . so it's must be still going on , plus boots with stuck on original or Acetate labels always popping up for sale , got to be from Djs . Surely nobody is doing it just to play at home ?

Edited April 5Apr 5 by Happy Feet

1 hour ago, Happy Feet said:

2 x weeks ago a Temptones Emidisc played by a prominent Dj BITD was auctioned on ebay with a few others , it fetched over £70 . so it's must be still going on , plus boots with stuck on original or Acetate labels always popping up for sale , got to be from Djs . Surely nobody is doing it just to play at home ?

I agree it is Djs.  They probably think there is some sort of authenticity to them if they are old. You can get two sides cut for £20/£30 so why spend more?

2 hours ago, Happy Feet said:

2 x weeks ago a Temptones Emidisc played by a prominent Dj BITD was auctioned on ebay with a few others , it fetched over £70 . so it's must be still going on , plus boots with stuck on original or Acetate labels always popping up for sale , got to be from Djs . Surely nobody is doing it just to play at home ?

I've noticed those stuck-on label 45s on UK eBay. Been going on a long time.

I didn't do a deep dive into it but looked like same person or people who had hit on a way of getting more money for boots.

Didn't assume it was connected to dj's.

3 hours ago, Happy Feet said:

2 x weeks ago a Temptones Emidisc played by a prominent Dj BITD was auctioned on ebay with a few others , it fetched over £70 . so it's must be still going on , plus boots with stuck on original or Acetate labels always popping up for sale , got to be from Djs . Surely nobody is doing it just to play at home ?

Temptones wasn't an Emidisc as such. Track was cut on the blank flip of an authentic US 60s Wilson Pickett acetate. Maybe to give it more authenticity 

3 hours ago, Benji said:

Temptones wasn't an Emidisc as such. Track was cut on the blank flip of an authentic US 60s Wilson Pickett acetate. Maybe to give it more authenticity 

Still a bootleg Upcycling an Acetate surely with a hand made paper label ?

Anyone got a link to the temptones emi?

20 hours ago, Benji said:

Temptones wasn't an Emidisc as such. Track was cut on the blank flip of an authentic US 60s Wilson Pickett acetate. Maybe to give it more authenticity 

Or to fool somebody into thinking it’s real ? 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/226622851744?_skw=temptones&itmmeta=01JR2SNAXH66ZPXGF5YH02D1NM&hash=item34c3c64aa0:g:Nu0AAOSwFKFnwbS9&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAAA0FkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1c3kq3yWk6EdUT1v3DHaX0SUSepZvYCsjAqAnHk7SnEGlDF2VSowmVXxjQvtbdxSRTfAC4Cxw6xoi3%2FDknLQ4SVHHHcjpK%2FMSId2iojtPRCs8qRw949DUtpXVWnom0TRQLHlXVZTyeL2YT%2FNToL65gm1%2Fph0buTgGmojX2cUhDwqZyJ4ZExJe2Eh699BQvSEt3frb75ZODyhzTiBLHQMFmHUw18AZTucHzmgePFBW3%2BJ%2FLzQBNNjuRPlxJO0y2ECCw%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-6u1dnAZQ