What happened between Berry Gordy & Jackie Wilson - does anyone really know?

What would have happened to his singing career and what Motown releases would have been destined for him?

Quite interesting subject really I feel. What do you all think.

Cheers........... Becket of Banbury.

What happened between Berry Gordy & Jackie Wilson - does anyone really know?

What would have happened to his singing career and what Motown releases would have been destined for him?

Quite interesting subject really I feel. What do you all think.

Cheers........... Becket of Banbury.

good question!!! i reckon that jamie would deffinatley have been recorded by jackie wilson as berry gordy was looking for someone to emulate jackie, i am not saying that eddie hollands version is crap but i do think that if jackie wilson had recorded it would have been brill, same with chris jackson i'll never foget you, and there is probably loads more. ???????????

If Jackie Wilson had signed for Motown, he would never have recorded:

Whispers

Soul Galore

My Heart Is Calling

The Who Who Song

Since You Showed Me How To Be Happy

I Don't Want To Lose You

I've Lost You

Just Be Sincere

You Brought About A Change In Me

I'm The One To Do It

Higher And Higher

(No Pity) In The Naked City

Haunted House

Nothing But Blue Skies

I Get The Sweetest Feeling

Somebody Up There Likes You

This Love Is Real

Because Of You etc. etc.

...so let's all be glad that he didn't, eh?

Edited September 11, 200817 yr by TONY ROUNCE

If Jackie Wilson had signed for Motown, he would never have recorded:

Whispers

Soul Galore

My Heart Is Calling

The Who Who Song

Since You Showed Me How To Be Happy

I Don't Want To Lose You

I've Lost You

Just Be Sincere

You Brought About A Change In Me

I'm The One To Do It

Higher And Higher

(No Pity) In The Naked City

Haunted House

Nothing But Blue Skies

I Get The Sweetest Feeling

Somebody Up There Likes You

This Love Is Real

Because Of You etc. etc.

...so let's all be glad that he didn't, eh?

Mmmm . Its funny isn't when you see a random list like that you cant help singing a bit of each one in your head as you go down the list. The 'mighty' Jackie Wilson' I can't think of many, if any, artists who were as prolific in providing northern soul music for us . everyones got a fave Jackie Wilson tune ---whats yours?

IM THE ONE TO DO IT - LEEDS CENTRAL MEMORIES - LATE 70S.

Shortly after JW died, I remember a new singer being introduced as the new JW. Cant remember the name, and obviously nothing much come of it, but it is one voice that stands out with instant recognition more than most.

Ed

Didnt Jackie, get held out off a 5th floor by his feet By the Mob until he signed a new contract with Brunswick?

Kev

good question!!! i reckon that jamie would deffinatley have been recorded by jackie wilson as berry gordy was looking for someone to emulate jackie, i am not saying that eddie hollands version is crap but i do think that if jackie wilson had recorded it would have been brill, same with chris jackson i'll never foget you, and there is probably loads more. ???????????

When Jamie was written recorded, BG and Motown wouldn't have been able to afford Jackie Wilson. And I doubt wether he would have been willing to sign one of Motowns standard contracts.

UNLESS THE DANGLED HIM OUT OF A TENTH STORY WINDOW,

BRI PINCH.

SERIOUSLY THO' I PERSONALLY DON'T THINK THAT JACKIE'S VOICE WOULD HAVE SUITED MOTOWNS PRODUCTION AS WELL AS THE CARL DAVIES/ SONNY SANDERS/ DICK JACOBS TYPE PRODUCTIONS .

BRI PINCH.

On " Higher and higher " it's the moonlighting Funk brothers on backing , this gives you an idea what he would have sounded like at Motown .He did cut " You keep me hanging on " , which makes you realise that the Chicago guys had one eye on Motown , those Chicago sessions are faultless tho ' aren't they ? Great thread Tom , good to have you on board !! Best ,Eddie

On " Higher and higher " it's the moonlighting Funk brothers on backing

...and Mary and Flo of the Supremes on backing vocals, according to Ms. Wilson.

To be fair, Higher & Higher doesn't really sound like any Motown records of that period, so it doesn't give anyone much of an idea of what Jackie would have sounded like at Motown. But "Somebody Up There Likes You" - which was recorded at the same session - does sound like a Motown production of the late 60s, and is about as close to a Motown record as Jackie ever got IMO.

Personally I don't think anyone could have done a better job on "Jamie" than Ediie Holland did, not even Jackie. It's a fantastic performance!

Think of the songs Smokey Robinson could have written for him.

Think of the songs Smokey Robinson could have written for him.

He'd've nailed 'Ooh Baby Baby', that's for sure.

But I don't think anyone could complain about the overall quality of the songs that he got from the regular Brunswick writers, not to mention the fact that he also recorded Van McCoy songs at Brunswick - which he would not have been allowed to do at Motown...

Edited September 11, 200817 yr by TONY ROUNCE

He'd've nailed 'Ooh Baby Baby', that's for sure.

But I don't think anyone could complain about the overall quality of the songs that he got from the regular Brunswick writers, not to mention the fact that he also recorded Van McCoy songs at Brunswick - which he would not have been allowed to do at Motown...

If JW had been at Motown , I would have to see what he would have done with some of the songs The Temptations recorded ......

" It's Growing " and " I Wish It Would Rain " are two that come to mind .......

Malc Burton

Mmmm . Its funny isn't when you see a random list like that you cant help singing a bit of each one in your head as you go down the list. The 'mighty' Jackie Wilson' I can't think of many, if any, artists who were as prolific in providing northern soul music for us . everyones got a fave Jackie Wilson tune ---whats yours?

mmmmmm, a lot of my favourites are his earlier releases......... let me have a chin

Lonely Teardrops

Soul Time

No Time Out

Am i the Man

That's Why

I'm travelling On

I'm so lonely

3 days something minutes and so many hours...mental block!!!

...

personally, i think a lot of those titles would sound at home in the snakepit. Nice thread by the way

Mike

Berry Gordy would have shafted him, same as everyone else. Jackie, ex-boxer, would have chinned him. Several days later, Jackie Wilson would have turned up in a skip with a .45cal hole in his head.

IM THE ONE TO DO IT - LEEDS CENTRAL MEMORIES - LATE 70S.

Shortly after JW died, I remember a new singer being introduced as the new JW. Cant remember the name, and obviously nothing much come of it, but it is one voice that stands out with instant recognition more than most.

Ed

I think you might be thinking of Robert Brookins, Ed....

What happened between Berry Gordy & Jackie Wilson - does anyone really know?

What would have happened to his singing career and what Motown releases would have been destined for him?

Quite interesting subject really I feel. What do you all think.

Cheers........... Becket of Banbury.

It doesn't bear thinking about

What happened between Berry Gordy & Jackie Wilson - does anyone really know?

What would have happened to his singing career and what Motown releases would have been destined for him?

Quite interesting subject really I feel. What do you all think.

Cheers........... Becket of Banbury.

Was Jackie Wilson not a massive star before Gordy even started up ?

I thought Black artists at the time aspired to be Jackie, he was the role model - many even copying his haircut !

I would have thought that both Ray Charles and Jackie Wilson did not sign to Motown because they did not have to as they were already MASSIVE ?

Just my 10p worth

Was Jackie Wilson not a massive star before Gordy even started up ?

I thought Black artists at the time aspired to be Jackie, he was the role model - many even copying his haircut !

I would have thought that both Ray Charles and Jackie Wilson did not sign to Motown because they did not have to as they were already MASSIVE ?

Just my 10p worth

Jackie had already had success with Billy Ward and the Dominoes before he went solo, but it was the early hits that Berry Gordy and Billy 'Tyran Carlo' Davis wrote for him that made him a big star.

Actually I don't think that anything really happened between Jackie and Berry - it was Jackie's manager, Nat Tarnopol, whom Berry and Billy fell foul of. I think that, having written Jackie something like 6 straight Hot Hundred smashes, they felt aggrieved at what they were expected to receive, by and from Tarnopol, in exchange for their labours. I also think that Gordy and Davis were already looking beyond being song suppliers to just one artist, which is probably what Tarnopol wanted them to be.

Just listen to Uptight, Jackie signing Motown on Brunswick, no need to speculate.

Mmmm . Its funny isn't when you see a random list like that you cant help singing a bit of each one in your head as you go down the list. The 'mighty' Jackie Wilson' I can't think of many, if any, artists who were as prolific in providing northern soul music for us . everyones got a fave Jackie Wilson tune ---whats yours?

I'm the one to do it and Whispers are my favourites.

Thankyou to everyone with their replies so far. Great opinions and great info.

As I started this, I feel it necessary to mention one of my faves...............

JUST BE SINCERE. Love it to bits.

Becket.

Just listen to Uptight, Jackie signing Motown on Brunswick, no need to speculate.

Mark - Did he do that with the "Count Basie Ochestra" - I have not heard it for years, but I seem to remember it was CB

Great version mind !!

Berry Gordy would have shafted him, same as everyone else. Jackie, ex-boxer, would have chinned him. Several days later, Jackie Wilson would have turned up in a skip with a .45cal hole in his head.

B.

True Jackie was a boxer and used to spar with B. G junior in the late 1950's Maybe Jackie was the better boxer so Berry spit his dummy out.

Remember the Isley Bros. did a version of Whispers getting louder

Westy

Just Posted up in Media

In Parts

Jackie Wilson talks about his early boxing career before his move into music. The interview was recorded shortly before his heart attack in 1975. Broadcast on: BBC Radio 2, 11:30pm Monday 8th September Duration: 30 minutes Available until: 12:02am Tuesday 16th September

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b007knnv/

Sorry if duplicated

This intrested to see but would he have done Open The Door To Your Heart my fav by him.

like most i reckon he would have been treated like other big stars and maybe someone like Holland Dozier and Holland would have got to write some hits for him.

good job cause i am sure i would love his take on stuff like You Can't Hurry Love etc i don't think they would match up to the stuff he did with Brusnwick/MCA

Funny.

Ok - speculation is over - I had a record shop in Charlotte that Sonny Woods (Midnighters) and friend of Jackie

Wilson came to visit.  He told me the story of Tarnapol and henchmen hanging Jackie out window to re- sign or renew an expired contract.  Jackie WANTED to go to MoTown, but Nat would not let him go.  Of course we all saw the scene in 5 Heartbeats where they hung the guy out of the window............. was this some kind of sick inside joke.   One night Smokey was a guest on Larry King and I could not believe I got thru........... I asked Smokey about it and he hemmed and hawed like he did not know (Nat was still alive then - nuff said)

I was friends with Joyce McRae (now Mrs. Sam Moore) and she was with Jackie, taking care of him until they ran her off.   She told me same story and of the horrific treatment Jackie got in nursing home (once beaten with arm of wheelchair)

I have one of Jackie's leather suits, a roadie shirt (prized possessions)

When he came to Charlotte once, I called and requested an interview - He told me to come to rehearsal - he had a cowboy hat and a half pint bottle in his back pocket.  We talked and I was ready to pull out of parking lot.   Thump, Thump, Thump - Jackie Wilson taping on my window

"Hey will you give me a ride.............  O Hell Yea "  We talked and he invited me to be his guest that night.  As you know, he took salt pills to sweat, so he was sopping sweat............   "I've done my show.....  What do you want to hear?"    Being a smartass, I shouted "You Can't Keep a Good Man Down" (his first with Dominoes)   He laughed and said,  "This afternoon, I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Chris Beachley, he has all my old records"

My feet did not touch the floor as I left there that evening and if I could, became a bigger fan.

Jackie had the voice, the dance and the capability to have been a MoTown artist, moving to Vegas and still getting down should he get a show outside the area.

Seeing Bobby Wilson gives me chills.  Not the chops, but the genes

Thank God for video and vinyl - Mr. Excitement lives on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

great story...thanks for sharing....

The story of Jackie being hung out of the window by his ankles until he signed a new contract was in the first press of the biography. It was later taken out. 

36 minutes ago, Chalky said:

The story of Jackie being hung out of the window by his ankles until he signed a new contract was in the first press of the biography. It was later taken out. 

It's mentioned here

https://blackkudos.tumblr.com/post/156133531182/jackie-wilson

Jackie was so popular

Edited October 5, 20205 yr by Blackpoolsoul

On 05/10/2020 at 01:20, Chris Beachley said:

Ok - speculation is over - I had a record shop in Charlotte that Sonny Woods (Midnighters) and friend of Jackie

Wilson came to visit.  He told me the story of Tarnapol and henchmen hanging Jackie out window to re- sign or renew an expired contract.  Jackie WANTED to go to MoTown, but Nat would not let him go.  Of course we all saw the scene in 5 Heartbeats where they hung the guy out of the window............. was this some kind of sick inside joke.   One night Smokey was a guest on Larry King and I could not believe I got thru........... I asked Smokey about it and he hemmed and hawed like he did not know (Nat was still alive then - nuff said)

I was friends with Joyce McRae (now Mrs. Sam Moore) and she was with Jackie, taking care of him until they ran her off.   She told me same story and of the horrific treatment Jackie got in nursing home (once beaten with arm of wheelchair)

I have one of Jackie's leather suits, a roadie shirt (prized possessions)

When he came to Charlotte once, I called and requested an interview - He told me to come to rehearsal - he had a cowboy hat and a half pint bottle in his back pocket.  We talked and I was ready to pull out of parking lot.   Thump, Thump, Thump - Jackie Wilson taping on my window

"Hey will you give me a ride.............  O Hell Yea "  We talked and he invited me to be his guest that night.  As you know, he took salt pills to sweat, so he was sopping sweat............   "I've done my show.....  What do you want to hear?"    Being a smartass, I shouted "You Can't Keep a Good Man Down" (his first with Dominoes)   He laughed and said,  "This afternoon, I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Chris Beachley, he has all my old records"

My feet did not touch the floor as I left there that evening and if I could, became a bigger fan.

Jackie had the voice, the dance and the capability to have been a MoTown artist, moving to Vegas and still getting down should he get a show outside the area.

Seeing Bobby Wilson gives me chills.  Not the chops, but the genes

Thank God for video and vinyl - Mr. Excitement lives on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Oh wow, what a great insight 

Cheers for sharing 👍🏼 

There is a brilliant Sun tape of Elvis talking and praising   Jackie Wilson , I'm sure some  on here will have heard it ?

Jackie would have done wonderful things coming to Motown in 1961, working with Smokey, HDH, Stevenson-Hunter, Fuqua-Bristol, singing in front of Funk Brothers' instrumentals!  It was a crime against humanity!  I was devastated in 1961 hearing the rumours that he'd be moving to Motown, and seeing over the years, that he never did.

I’m not convinced he’d have been a good fit at Motown, like Chuck Jackson. Jackie is Jackie and his Brunswick releases are of the highest quality. I’m happy to have them. Awesome singer.

47 minutes ago, El Corol said:

I’m not convinced he’d have been a good fit at Motown, like Chuck Jackson. Jackie is Jackie and his Brunswick releases are of the highest quality. I’m happy to have them. Awesome singer.

Chuck Jackson would have been fine at Motown if he had been treated the same as the Detroiters, given A-level material, and given a decent marketing push.  The Isley Brothers, Brenda Holloway, and even Gladys Knight and The Pips were not treated nearly as well as the inner circle Detroiters. 

5 hours ago, Robbk said:

Chuck Jackson would have been fine at Motown if he had been treated the same as the Detroiters, given A-level material, and given a decent marketing push.  The Isley Brothers, Brenda Holloway, and even Gladys Knight and The Pips were not treated nearly as well as the inner circle Detroiters. 

Worse than he did there and then... ? 🥶😪😉

... 

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

Worse than he did there and then... ? 🥶😪😉

... 

To Tlscapital:

I was referring to El Corol's statement that he thought that Chuck Jackson wasn't a good fit at Motown (- e.g. that being a Motown artist didn't help Chuck's career).  What does THAT have to do with Nat Tarnopol stealing Jackie Wilson's earnings?  Are you saying that Berry Gordy and Motown were more unfair with Chuck Jackson related to what earnings he received than other record companies, for whom he could have recorded instead during that period, would have been to Chuck?  And then, are you relating THAT to whether or not Jackie Wilson switching to Motown would have helped HIS career?

I don't understand the logic of your statement, nor do I even understand whether you are talking about Chuck, or Jackie at which company, when you wrote "Worse than he did there and then... ?"

Who is "he"?  And what company is "there", and what period is "then".  I'm sure that it is all clear in your own mind; but it is NOT at all clear to me (and, perhaps many other readers) in your vague and brief 7-word statement.

Please clarify your statement with more detail, so I'll be able to understand your point, and why you have those emojies after it.  This shows that typing messages (even with the aid of emojies) is a poor substitute for speaking face-to-face.  Over the past several years, I've noticed that first, my short-term memory has been slowly, but increasingly melting away, and lately, even my long-term memory has started to leave.  And, I often cannot bring up an English word when I need it in speech.  But I hadn't noticed no longer being able to understand the printed word, in either Dutch OR English!  This is distressing.  😟

Edited October 12, 20205 yr by Robbk

Who cares tbh?  Jackie has a great body of work regardless and Motown probably would have ruined him just like they did others they didn’t know what to do with.  

1 minute ago, Chalky said:

Who cares tbh?  Jackie has a great body of work regardless and Motown probably would have ruined him just like they did others they didn’t know what to do with.  

Why did Motown know what to do with The Supremes, Temptations, Four Tops, and Stevie Wonder, and they wouldn't have with Jackie?  Or is it your contention that Motown ruined ALL their artists, and they'd have ruined Jackie more than Tarnopol did?

17 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Who cares tbh?  Jackie has a great body of work regardless and Motown probably would have ruined him just like they did others they didn’t know what to do with.  

By the way, my point was coming from the selfish point of view of a Jackie Wilson AND Motown fan.  I personally would have preferred to hear Jackie sing songs written by Motown's best songwriting teams, and had The Funk Brothers and other Motown session players playing on his background tracks, and Motown arrangers arranging them, and Motown sound engineers working on his recordings in Motown's sound studios.  I wasn't trying to imply that coming to Motown would have been better all-around for Jackie, personally.  Although, I can't imagine being at Motown could have hurt him moire than being under Tarnopol's thumb.  I can't believe that Tarnopol's horrible treatment of him didn't play a significant role in Jackie's all too early demise.

Edited October 12, 20205 yr by Robbk

Hi Robb, I guessed as much - it's an interesting thought experiment for sure. However there's a chance that Jackie at Motown may not have been such a brightly shining star, given all the talent already there and the quality control system (with its sometimes baffling decisions, as now 5 volumes of Cellarful of Motown plus other discoveries testify). Look what happened to Marv Johnson. Alternatively, Jackie might have shone brightly, but at the expense of someone else (e.g. Marvin). We'll never know of course, but the music he recorded in Chicago with Carl Davis and co was and remains top drawer, and if I wish anything, it is that there would be a stash of until now undiscovered goodies from that time for us to enjoy.

If you haven't read Tony Douglas' terrific book: Jackie Wilson - Lonely Teardrops, I really recommend it. The multi-layered complexities of Jackie's personal and music business life are thoroughly explored. Not many people come out looking good. It would have been interesting to see what Motown did with Jackie but, as Tony Rounce observed above, look at what we would've missed.

44 minutes ago, Soulfinger said:

If you haven't read Tony Douglas' terrific book: Jackie Wilson - Lonely Teardrops, I really recommend it. The multi-layered complexities of Jackie's personal and music business life are thoroughly explored. Not many people come out looking good. It would have been interesting to see what Motown did with Jackie but, as Tony Rounce observed above, look at what we would've missed.

I have read the book and it is a eye-opening .

As for Motown as stated earlier his body of music he created  was great and his voice blended with the great songwriting , great production and greats finished records I do not think his legacy music wise would have been any better at Motown.

Edited October 12, 20205 yr by Shinehead

13 hours ago, Robbk said:

Chuck Jackson would have been fine at Motown if he had been treated the same as the Detroiters, given A-level material, and given a decent marketing push.  The Isley Brothers, Brenda Holloway, and even Gladys Knight and The Pips were not treated nearly as well as the inner circle Detroiters. 

Completely agree with you on that Robb

Maybe Granny from Beverly Hillbillies was of greater interest.  That's right, they actually pressed something by her!!!!!!!!!!!!!   It should be obvious of how Spinners bloomed when they got out of being valets for the Temps. 

MoTown took a talent like Robert John and had him do a re-make of Newbeats.  His A&M and Atlantic show his talent and he later zoomed to the top with Sad Eyes.  It's obvious that the inner circle Detroiters and especially the skinny girl from the Supremes were as far as they looked.

To digress from Motown, an ABC promo man called me to his house to play the latest Four Tops - "I Just Can't Get You Out of My Mind" -  He says "Great record huh..........  sorry, all the promo budget is going to Freddie Fender!!!"    

 

How's your shop doing, Chris ?

Last time I was in NC in 2008 I went to a do in Greensboro. DJ playing off a laptop. 

Vinyl sales affected ? Beach still popular ?

We did one or two trades back in the 80's/90's mainly.

8 hours ago, Robbk said:

Why did Motown know what to do with The Supremes, Temptations, Four Tops, and Stevie Wonder, and they wouldn't have with Jackie?  Or is it your contention that Motown ruined ALL their artists, and they'd have ruined Jackie more than Tarnopol did?

Not at all.  There are plenty of acts who struggled at Motown purely because Motown focused on The Supremes, Tempts, Tops etc.  Stevie Wonder was forever battling the company for creative control as were other acts, Marvin Gaye being another.

It has already been said look what we would have missed if he had gone to Motown early in his career.  He has a body of work at Brunswick that stands against any solo artist at Motown IMHO and I strongly believe Motown couldn't have bettered it.   I'm not sure Motown with their output aimed largely at the white mor/pop market would have marketed Jackie better than where he was?

Maybe Jackie's motive for wanting to leave was because Tarnopol was screwing him, i.e. financial and he thought he might get a better deal at Motown who didn't have a great reputation with its payments to artists either?  Was Tarnopol ruining him musically?  He continued to put some great music out throughout the 60s and into the 70s.

50 minutes ago, Modernsoulsucks said:

How's your shop doing, Chris ?

Last time I was in NC in 2008 I went to a do in Greensboro. DJ playing off a laptop. 

Vinyl sales affected ? Beach still popular ?

We did one or two trades back in the 80's/90's mainly.