Would Anyone Grade This Record Ex+ ? (Bought On Soul Source)

[Pete S]

There's no doubt or wiggle-room about the grade of that record; it's visually VG Minus and, since any seller worth his salt will use the lesser grade when considering visual and audio condition, it's therefore VG Minus regardless of how well it plays. Nothing wrong, of course, with a seller stating "visually VG Minus, plays better" and (assuming the statement is true) backing that up with a soundclip.

It is vg minus but if it plays better then thats when you have to double grade. Visually vg minus, plays ex or whatever.

[Stevie]

Agree with a lot of what has been said re gradings. Something I also consider important is to know where the seller resides. Only two non receipts I have experienced came from the same country. May not be the sellers fault - blame may lie with the postal system - but it's one of a number of areas that many US dealers won't post to unless recorded/insured due to problems. Members used to have their location in their profile, but no longer. If you are selling on here, at the very least, the Country you are selling from should be displayed in thread and/or profile.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Agree with a lot of what has been said re gradings. Something I also consider important is to know where the seller resides. Only two non receipts I have experienced came from the same country. May not be the sellers fault - blame may lie with the postal system - but it's one of a number of areas that many US dealers won't post to unless recorded/insured due to problems. Members used to have their location in their profile, but no longer. If you are selling on here, at the very least, the Country you are selling from should be displayed in thread and/or profile.

Yep,i agree with that actually. I think the Country you reside in is totally relevant when youre talking about expensive records being shipped off......

[Premium Stuff]

Maybe again this is an example of the potential benefits of having a template for sales

This would mean people need to fill in all relevant information including their location, payment methods, grading of label, vinyl etc. even a yes/no option to confirm presence/absence of things like label stains, sticker marks, WOL might work well?

It would also mean we don't have issues with all the superfluous information, illegible fonts that people moan about

You could also cut out bumping and "PM'd ya" messages - only allowing editing in the original template

Plus, please ban YouTube clips - or only allow them all at the bottom of the list - they are a real pain in the ar*e and stop me looking at some lists all together now

Grumpy from Newark

Cheers

Richard

Edited December 2, 2011 by Premium Stuff

[Glynthornhill]

]

He said definite no-no Chalky - that's tarring everyone with the same brush. Most of my sales are on commission, 20%, that's why I ask for paypal gift.

But I suppose if you don't know the person it's best to be cautious.

Bargain commission price Pete , I charge 21 %

[Guest Ivor Jones]

He said definite no-no Chalky - that's tarring everyone with the same brush. Most of my sales are on commission, 20%, that's why I ask for paypal gift.

But I suppose if you don't know the person it's best to be cautious.

Well Chaps,what i actually meant is that for me personally,i wouldnt do it anymore.Unless i know or trust the person im dealing with. Obviously,its not meant to upset anyone,least of all someone who is genuine. I myself,have taken payment via this method,but then im not out to have anyone over money -wise.And, ive always laid out the implications to the buyer so they can make a decision if they wanna pay that way.If someone isnt happy with a record ive sent [which has only ever happened to me once by the way],then i would give a full refund. I can also understand why Pete might spring to the defence of payment by this method seeing as its an important element to his record dealing but really the problem lies with the slippery characters ,who,once they have someones money,is like trying to get blood out of a stone getting a refund. Or even any contact.

I also think every seller on the forum should agree to give refunds ,where the buyer is unhappy with the record for whatever reason,as a necessary prerequisite to sell on here.Or they should state quite clearly that no refunds will given. Then ,any prospective buyers could make a decision whether they actually wanted to do business with these people,

Pesonally,i wouldnt touch them with a bargepole....

Yours Sincerely,Ivor

[Chalky]

Plus, please ban YouTube clips - or only allow then all at the bottom of the list - they are a real pain in the ar*e and stop me looking at some lists all together now

Grumpy from Newark

Cheers

Richard

I don't understand the use of YT clips when you can use mp3 clips in sales.

They are a pain to load when viewing with a mobile device and I tend to ignore the topic when they are loaded with YT clips, loss of potential sale.

[Guest jerrio]

I think the problem is that there seems to be two types of UK graders (at least on here). Those that are ultra-conservative and those that grade trashed records as VG or higher. There doesn't seem to be any in between. I feel like I am in between as I'm not the most conservative grader in the world but I don't grade trashed records as VG. I sold a record to someone here recently and they felt it was overgraded and we came to an agreement with a partial refund. But when I get trashed records from people here I usually avoid getting into anything with them (unless they are major records). I just avoid dealing with them in the future. Many people here are so hot-headed that they can't take any negative criticism without it blowing up into a big thing, often publicly.

re: polished records, while some people are unscrupulous enough to polish their records, some people here may have gotten records from certain shady dealers in the states who polish their records, and they don't know what polishing is and what to look for, and they pass on the records as is. I find it's relatively rare for UK sellers to polish records. There are some australian sellers I've dealt with that do, I just avoid them now.

Once bitten twice shy Bob,The records i have bought via SS have been great but i would never go back to anyone who cant be trusted as a seller,private or a dealer.

[boba]

It is vg minus but if it plays better then thats when you have to double grade. Visually vg minus, plays ex or whatever.

I agree with this. I think records should be graded visually and then then the play should be described if it differs from the visual grade. However, though, I'm confused by when people says "plays VG" as the grading guides are not for play and that can mean different things to different people. I do sometimes say "plays NM" but i usually will go into detail about how it plays (e.g. crackle at certain points, background noise, etc.).

[Pete S]

I agree with this. I think records should be graded visually and then then the play should be described if it differs from the visual grade. However, though, I'm confused by when people says "plays VG" as the grading guides are not for play and that can mean different things to different people. I do sometimes say "plays NM" but i usually will go into detail about how it plays (e.g. crackle at certain points, background noise, etc.).

I mention if it's got one 'pop' on the intro or maybe crackle before record starts, anything to help describe it better, things that people never mention to me when I buy off them LOL trouble is, they think if you point out a tiny pop or single click, the record's actually going to be shagged. Can't win.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Pete S

[Ian Dewhirst]

I mention if it's got one 'pop' on the intro or maybe crackle before record starts, anything to help describe it better, things that people never mention to me when I buy off them LOL trouble is, they think if you point out a tiny pop or single click, the record's actually going to be shagged. Can't win.

The grading side is very difficult, especially with rare Northern. For a start, I would never expect to find a mint copy of any record that's 40 + years old anymore. So, as a result, I would personally almost ignore the M catergory and console myself that any record which is that old and which actually still plays as it should without any obvious problems, is a result. So my definition of M is waaay lower then many other buyers. I know John Manship has tons of M records but there's not may people ever likely to hit a load like he did with unblemished records which had been properly stored. So people should get realistic about expecting M to be as good as new from some 40+ years ago.

Plus, let's not forget that records were designed to be played. So if you buy a M copy does that mean that you'll never ever play it?

I currently have a whole heap of rare 12"'s and other stuff on Discogs. Many of the records listed were bought new and never ever played because I used seperate copies for all deejaying as I know that they're the ones which will get trashed no matter how carefully you've tried to look after them. So, the grand majority of the records on my shelves are mint, in that they've hardly ever been played since I bought 'em.

So I sold a few in the last week or so. All were mint, but after 20-30 years on my shelves, they're kinda dusty. One decent clean and they'll all come up as mint. The only problem is, that I don't have time to clean 'em.

So I had one guy come back to me and complain that the record wasn't mint. I said it was, because I knew 100% catergorically that the record has never ever been played. However, many of the records are dusty, so should part of a dealer's responsibility be to clean the records up as well?

Unfortunately that won't work for me since I don't have either the time or inclination to clean 'em up. So now I've added a disclaimer to my Discogs page which informs people that the records offered for sale and advertised as being M, are actually M but probably need cleaning. Is that fair enough or should I be doing more?

I was actually thinking of following Pete's advice and never advertising a record as M on the basis that it's just easier to avoid that pitfall. But there's another part of me that thinks some people's expectations are just way too high and that trying to measure a 40 or 50 year old record against such expectations is simply naive.

Ian D

[Steve L]

What about people who list records without giving a grade? Seen it a few times

[Modernsoulsucks]

I agree with this. I think records should be graded visually and then then the play should be described if it differs from the visual grade. However, though, I'm confused by when people says "plays VG" as the grading guides are not for play and that can mean different things to different people. I do sometimes say "plays NM" but i usually will go into detail about how it plays (e.g. crackle at certain points, background noise, etc.).

Yes. that's what I was getting at when I replied to Kris's grading scheme. Im still working on drawing up something.

Ian, I think unplayed stock is turning up all the time. Might be harder now but when I was doing it full-time store stock 25-30 year old 45s were very common back in 90's.

As for the refund and Gift thing I mentioned all that in the gudelines [see top of Sales page] that were posted at end of September. Best practice kinda thing.

SteveL, yes told a couple of posters when I notice. Rarely is it the whole ad though.

ROD

[paultp]

There's no point agreeing a grading scale because anyone who over grades records will still over grade.

I try and under grade but still make mistakes - it comes down to people's perceptions of grade - I'll always give a refund though.

Anyone who wants to regularly sell records is likely to be honest because if you're not people won't buy from you again. I've bought records from regular sellers that were massively over graded and I just don't buy from them again, no matter what the record is. Most things I've bought from sales on here have been fine though.

And no, I won't be doing any naming

[boba]

It's pretty easy for an unplayed record to not be mint

[Missgoldie]

I don't think any 40 year old record can be graded at NM or M, M- should be the highest grade for unplayed records. I also think that if the record is Styrene that it should be stated and for those of us who often want something for the "wrong" side both sides need to be graded.

[boba]

I don't think any 40 year old record can be graded at NM or M, M- should be the highest grade for unplayed records. I also think that if the record is Styrene that it should be stated and for those of us who often want something for the "wrong" side both sides need to be graded.

what is the difference between M- and NM? recently I saw a NM-, which was funny because it didn't exist in the seller's grade listing in his "about me" page.

[Ian Dewhirst]

It's pretty easy for an unplayed record to not be mint

True. I think the Discogs definition of Mint as in 'never been played' has lodged with me for some reason. I've rescued some records from cellars which have 100% never been played.

On the other hand, they may have been damp, covered in dust, cobwebs and rat piss. So I take your point Bob.

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

what is the difference between M- and NM? recently I saw a NM-, which was funny because it didn't exist in the seller's grade listing in his "about me" page.

This is why I for one would like to simplify the process. Don't get me wrong, I went through a period in my younger years when I used to stay awake at night worrying about a scratch on a record or cue hiss on styrene pressings but those days are long gone. These days my time is compromised, so stuff like this makes me lose the will to live.

I wouldn't force a trashed record on anyone. I want people to enjoy the record as much as I have. So 'Shit', 'OK' and 'Great' are good enough for me.

Also, I need to listen to a record to make sure it's OK, which immediately disqualifies it from being mint. Which genius came up with that?

Ian D

[Benji]

what is the difference between M- and NM?

both the same grade IMO.

[boba]

both the same grade IMO.

I always thought that too, but now I see NM- a lot, what the hell is that?

[Chalky]

I know plenty of dealers with unplayed stock, some of it never out of the sleeve it was originally put in so I don't know how you can say no such thing. Depending on the environment it has been stored in plenty of them clean as a whistle too, some of it like Ian says dusty.

[Godzilla]

I always thought that too, but now I see NM- a lot, what the hell is that?

It's nonsense - or maybe wishful thinking.

On reflection though, I reckon that due to some sellers over grading (frequently in the UK, it has to be said) others are afraid to use a VG or VG+ grade in case potential buyers infer that the record is in bad shape. I guess therefore that even if this site insisted on a standard grading system, some sellers will continue to abuse it. I'm often aware that I'm selling records with a few marks graded VG+ that others would call Ex or NM.

Also, I've never forgotten selling a 45 that I had genuinely graded VG due to it having numerous ugly surface marks, but also noted that it played absolutely fine. It was bought by a high profile seller on here that almost immediately re-listed it as Ex.

[Modernsoulsucks]

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/blog/357/entry-1028-record-grading/.

Drawn up something with the help of Big Jim Slade for you all to tear to pieces.

Feel free to post here with your suggestions.

ROD

[Wilxy]

Obviously,theres a lot feeling about these matters.....here`s some personal observations......Essentially, when buying or selling on here,youre trusting the other party to be honest. Every deal on here is a private matter between two individuals. When one of the two doesnt feel satisfied with their part of the deal its up to both of them to sort it out amicably. The problems seem to nearly always stem from a lack of communication from one side. In a situation where the buyer feels like theyve been mis -sold a record[e.g.in a condition they dont feel is acceptable] and the seller wont have any contact with them, this has to be seen as a flagrant breach of rules for the forum and should be dealt with in the strictest terms.......

I think its a good idea,for any sales on the forum to have all contact between the two parties via the forums PM system. That way, if anything goes wrong,you can include Rod or another of the moderators into the conversation so that they can see the actual contact or lack of contact and then make an informed judgement on the situation. Just a thought......

Secondly,paying with Paypal as "A Gift"........as i know from personal experience,this is a definate no-no as far as im concerned. Ask yourself this....Would you go up to someone you didnt know in the street and give them a substantial amount of money ? Course you wouldnt..... So why then do many of us continue to use this method of paying for records when,in effect,youre doing the self same thing via email ? Lets be clear about this. If you pay someone as "A Gift" youre giving them that money and, in the process, laying yourself open to no protection from paypal at all.Not like you would with a normal purchase thats for sure. The only person to gain is the seller who pays no fees at all....

Unless you personally know or trust the seller then dont take a chance.......

And, lastly, gradings. I dont really know how this can ever work when some of us are conservative and honest and often undergrade items and others it seems use dark glasses and wishfull thinking..........

Ivor

Sadly, and having purchased many records through this site over the years, without any hassle, and on the whole (apart from a couple of grading discrepancies), I'm afraid that Ivor strikes a chord with the Paypal gift issue, which naively on my part, has caught up with me courtesy of the action (or lack of it) by some unscrupulous t--- known as SS member soulful-illusion!

As it stands at the moment I have totally lost faith in the whole "record thing" having taken this issue very much to heart, as again naively thought that blaggards on this site were as rare as Dodo's....... alas whilst the thread title is of concern with regard to condition and consistency, I will NEVER use paypal as gift ever again in the purchase of vinyl, preferring to pay the additional costs, and at least have a possibility of being on a level playing field if needs arise so to speak.....However whilst having lost out from a monetary perspective, the saddest part of my current situation is having my trust betrayed which unfortunately IMHO....... is worth more than either the disc or the cash involved......Sad days indeed!

[hrtshpdbox]

It is vg minus but if it plays better then thats when you have to double grade. Visually vg minus, plays ex or whatever.

Yes, the more info the better and all that; still, in a hypothetical database where you've got just three or four spaces to indicate "grade", it's VG Minus. And there's something economical (and honest, albeit slightly to the extreme but that's kind of the point) about flat-out stating the grade that a buyer will be pleased with - and that's always the lesser of the visual and audio grades.

[Mrtag]

bought this record on soul source. seller doesn't answer my mails. this is the worst record i ever bought sold as ex+. i can't believe it!

Oooops!! Bad Grading!!

[Modernsoulsucks]

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/blog/357/entry-1028-record-grading/

Reminder that we can discuss grading here.

ROD

[Dave Pinch]

grading has got to be down to the seller and hope that they get it right. no one is ever gonna agree on every grading..its a bit like finding a topic on here with everyone agreeing with one another..rarer than hairs on a snake

dave

[Chalky]

grading has got to be down to the seller and hope that they get it right. no one is ever gonna agree on every grading..its a bit like finding a topic on here with everyone agreeing with one another..rarer than hairs on a snake

dave

you have to admit though Dave some of the grades used are a joke, not just on here but lists, ebay or wherever a record is sold. I mean what the f*ck is vg+++++++++ or M--------- or Ex++++++++++. Half the gradings used don't exist except in the sellers mind.

[Kjw]

grading has got to be down to the seller and hope that they get it right. no one is ever gonna agree on every grading..its a bit like finding a topic on here with everyone agreeing with one another..rarer than hairs on a snake

dave

Here's one Dave

[Dave Pinch]

Here's one Dave

:lol: