This R&b Thing ?

[Len]

 which has only been used relatively recently

 

Someone mentioned 'Otis Lee - Hard Row to Hoe', and 'Bud Harper - Wherever You Were'.....I absolutely fell in love with these two records in the 80's, and I think the reason being was because they were so different - Especially the haunting 'Hard Row to Hoe'.

 

I still love them both to this day, although Bud Harper has only just come 'back off the shelf' after about ten years - For some reason I am loving it 'all over again' at present

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Edited March 4, 2014 by LEN

[Len]

You're just in denial Len.

Just in case your dyslexia kicks in again I'm not referring to the river in Egypt....

;o)

 

Ok, so maybe I do listen to a bit of R 'n' B' under my quilt whilst reading Titbits.....maybe I don't......

 

Len

[hullsoul]

This is like two people in a room arguing over fruit, one is trying to convince the other that apples are oranges

Ray Agee, The Invitations - Watch Out Little Girl & The Constellations - I Didn't Know How just aren't R&B in my book 

Steve

You need the latest addition as your old book is wrong

Cheers

Martyn

[Len]

I did my first ever dj spot for him at the Outrigger sunday all dayer.

 

What year was that mate? I don't think I know Tony Reynolds.

 

All the best,

 

Len  

 

P.s - Ted, I'm trying my bestest not to be facetious on this thread - I'm finding peoples views very interesting  

[Len]

 

'Dust my broom' has been played at nearly every allnighter i ever attended.

 

Ain't that the f*ckin truth Ruth!

 

.......awful record

 

Len  

[Labeat]

Oranges, Apples.... they both give me the pip!

Also, Tomatoes are 100% fruit.

Ray Agee is a fantastic slab of "SOUL" music.

[Pete S]

Steve

You need the latest addition as your old book is wrong

Cheers

Martyn

 

I'd love to know when those three records went from being Northern Soul to being R & B...

[Labeat]

In case you didn't know Len, an outrigger is an extension of an oil rig

[Len]

Oranges, Apples.... they both give me the pip!

Also, Tomatoes are 100% fruit.

Ray Agee is a fantastic slab of "SOUL" music.

 

......."You say Tomatoes, I say Tomangoes, Tomatoes,Tomangoes, Tomatoes, Tomangoes - Let's call the whole thing off"  

 

Len  

[KevH]

I'd love to know when those three records went from being Northern Soul to being R & B...

 

Pete they didn't.One piggy was always R'nB,then became NS.The two other piggies stayed at their NS home.

[Spacehopper]

so I think im right in saying in the states in the 60s all the music we love was in the rhythm and blues charts..so when was it first called 'soul' and by who?..and I don't mean soul as in gospel

[Andrea Ko]

if I used to be pretty confident in saying that is R&B and that NS, now that I got into this thread I'm more confused than ever...

[pogo paul]

Ain't that the f*ckin truth Ruth!

 

.......awful record

 

Len  

Absolute Classic! can't believe anyone into soul music would not like this one!

[pikeys dog]

Nice cup of Déjà vu, anyone?

[Mark S]

Felt the urge to share another donkey picture with you all .

Look at it for long enough and all will become clear .

[pikeys dog]

That's not a Donkey, it's an Ass.

 

 

Oh!

 

 

Yeah.

[Winsford Soul]

It's all as clear as mud to me. Still no one has come up with the answer to my earlier question. Who decides what goes into what category. Steve

[Guest CapitolSC]

Theres Been a Black Music Mod Scene in London since the 80s

Some clubs were more pure Rhythm and Blues with Jamaican stuff and a bit of Latin

 

The ones i ran  were a good mixture of Black music from the 50s to 60s

I love Rhythm and Soul,Jamaican Latin and all got played.

 

The Top Mods into  6ts  Soul in  London loved the Tunes spun by Guy,Keb,Ady,Butch  etc and we all 

knew About Ray Agee on SoulTown and still have Top collections

 

The Club i Run in London is Called RnB123

RnB As in Black American music from the 60s,

But we do cover from the 50s right up to some Crossover 

 

Just thought id point that all out cos if your not from the smoke you wouldn't know

 

Al H 

[Mark S]

 

It's all as clear as mud to me. Still no one has come up with the answer to my earlier question. Who decides what goes into what category. Steve

Now that would be an ecumenical matter

Its all to confusing for me .

[Winsford Soul]

 

Now that would be an ecumenical matter

Father_Jack.jpg

Its all to confusing for me .

Mark. I do hope your not bashing the bishop.   Steve

[Denbo]

It's all as clear as mud to me. Still no one has come up with the answer to my earlier question. Who decides what goes into what category. Steve

Some can be categorised into more than one pigeon hole. Simples 

Edited March 4, 2014 by denbo

[Winsford Soul]

Some can be categorised into more than pigeon hole. Simples 

Denbo. That's all well and good mate. But who decides it. Is it the punters/dancers or the DJ,s. Steve

[Brav]

Denbo. That's all well and good mate. But who decides it. Is it the punters/dancers or the DJ,s. Steve

Pete Smith decides by the look of his posts

[Chalky]

Denbo. That's all well and good mate. But who decides it. Is it the punters/dancers or the DJ,s. Steve

 

Record dealers 

[Len]

Absolute Classic! can't believe anyone into soul music would not like this one!

 

You'll catch up  

 

 

 

Len  

[Len]

It's all as clear as mud to me. Still no one has come up with the answer to my earlier question. Who decides what goes into what category. Steve

 

Me.

 

Len  

[hullsoul]

I'd love to know when those three records went from being Northern Soul to being R & B...

Pete

I thought it'd already been established that "Northern Soul" was a later made up genre that meant nothing when the records were made,so shouldn't your question have been when did those R n B records become Northern Soul?

Cheers

Martyn

[Pete S]

Pete

I thought it'd already been established that "Northern Soul" was a later made up genre that meant nothing when the records were made,so shouldn't your question have been when did those R n B records become Northern Soul?

Cheers

Martyn

 

Yeah I really enjoyed going to Wigan Casino in the 1970's to dance the night away to R & B, I loved collecting R & B records and being part of that R & B clique, you know that underground movement called R & B, in fact there's a film just about to come all about this scene in the 70's, surprisingly the film is called "Northern Soul"...

[hullsoul]

Yeah I really enjoyed going to Wigan Casino in the 1970's to dance the night away to R & B, I loved collecting R & B records and being part of that R & B clique, you know that underground movement called R & B, in fact there's a film just about to come all about this scene in the 70's, surprisingly the film is called "Northern Soul"...

So what did those soulies collect before the term was coined?

Cheers

Martyn

[pogo paul]

You'll catch up  

 

 

 

Len  

Don't think i want to!

Some people have too much time on their hands!

If the donkey pic is aimed at me carefull you don't get a kick

[Frankie Crocker]

This is a Northern Soul record with bells on.  Just because it's Ray Agee doesn't make it an R&B record.  IF you told someone, when this was first spun in 79, that it wasn't a Northern Soul record, you'd be laughed out of the place.

Ray Agee is a Northern record performed by an artist who emerged via the RnB circuit. Soultown in LA added the Northern qualities at a time soul music had advanced way beyond its RnB roots. I'm Losing Again is a great Northern record that has virtually zero RnB in the mix so it is ludicrous to call it RnB.

[Ted Massey]

What year was that mate? I don't think I know Tony Reynolds.

 

All the best,

 

Len  

 

P.s - Ted, I'm trying my bestest not to be facetious on this thread - I'm finding peoples views very interesting  

1983/84 len

[pogo paul]

Ray Agee is a Northern record performed by an artist who emerged via the RnB circuit. Soultown in LA added the Northern qualities at a time soul music had advanced way beyond its RnB roots. I'm Losing Again is a great Northern record that has virtually zero RnB in the mix so it is ludicrous to call it RnB.

So it can't be both? sounds like RnB to me, how ludicrous?

Think in America they would call it RnB, or did Soultown in LA frequent Wigan Casino and know all about the Northern scene,

[Guest Bearsy]

Ray Agee is a Northern record performed by an artist who emerged via the RnB circuit. Soultown in LA added the Northern qualities at a time soul music had advanced way beyond its RnB roots. I'm Losing Again is a great Northern record that has virtually zero RnB in the mix so it is ludicrous to call it RnB.

 

So was there a Northern Soul chart all these artists tried to get to number 1 on ? 

 

What chart was Ray Agee aimed at do you think ?  RnB chart, Soul chart or just the top 100 pop Chart ?  Or was it just made for fun to hand out to friends etc ?

 

99.9% of all records made was made aimed at a target audience to hopefully sell to make the writers/artists etc money I was always led believe. 

 

If I'm wrong as I usually am then I would love to be educated on the true facts.  

 

It has RnB sound and feel to me and yes a superb Northern Soul tune it is too 

[Frankie Crocker]

Pete

I thought it'd already been established that "Northern Soul" was a later made up genre that meant nothing when the records were made,so shouldn't your question have been when did those R n B records become Northern Soul?

Cheers

Martyn

The term 'Northern Soul' was coined to summarise the predominately late 60's, up-tempo soul sounds that Lancs/Yorks/Staffs clubbers danced to. Being Motown influenced, these records were generally pressed between 1966 and 1969, the vintage years for Northern aficionados. The RnB of the Twisted Wheel was superseded by increasingly soulful sounds at the Torch and Wigan etc to the point it was superfluous and a minority genre for 60's Mods, 80's neo-Mods and today's neo- neo Mods.

[Frankie Crocker]

So it can't be both? sounds like RnB to me, how ludicrous?

Think in America they would call it RnB, or did Soultown in LA frequent Wigan Casino and know all about the Northern scene,

Check out Ray's Hard Working Man on Jewel - the RnB song that spawned I'm Losing Again. World of difference methinks...

[Frankie Crocker]

So was there a Northern Soul chart all these artists tried to get to number 1 on ? 

 

What chart was Ray Agee aimed at do you think ?  RnB chart, Soul chart or just the top 100 pop Chart ?  Or was it just made for fun to hand out to friends etc ?

 

99.9% of all records made was made aimed at a target audience to hopefully sell to make the writers/artists etc money I was always led believe. 

 

If I'm wrong as I usually am then I would love to be educated on the true facts.  

 

It has RnB sound and feel to me and yes a superb Northern Soul tune it is too 

The records were made for a local audience within a radio station radius. Charts were incidental. Records were pressed in batches of hundreds for local one-stops rather than a mass market. Soultown were producing for the ghetto communities of LA and radio time was initially more important than revenue hence the availability of demo records. In the end, the artists settled for local fame, albeit short lived, and no fortune.

[Chalky]

Ray Agee is a Northern record performed by an artist who emerged via the RnB circuit. Soultown in LA added the Northern qualities at a time soul music had advanced way beyond its RnB roots. I'm Losing Again is a great Northern record that has virtually zero RnB in the mix so it is ludicrous to call it RnB.

 

Ray Agee is a R&B or hard edged soul as some call it record adopted by the Northern Soul Scene.  There is no genre of music called Northern Soul.  The Northern Scene is an umbrella name for a scene encompassing different genres of music, by and large black R&B and Soul but also pop etc.  You might say there is no R&B in Ray Agee but there certainly is no Northern Soul in it because as a musical genre it doesn't exist.  It is a record that has a beat and tempo demanded by the dancers and DJ's on a small underground music scene although that has developed into something much wider over the years.   The record was recorded by a R&B artist for the black music scene in the area it was recorded and if aimed at any chart it was the R&B Charts.  

 

As for Soultown adding Northern qualities, Soultown didn't have a clue about the Uk scene and when this record and many 100's like it at that time was recorded there was no Northern Soul not by that name anyway.  It wasn't even recorded for the Uk dance scene but the local black market.

[Godzilla]

Ray Agee is a R&B or hard edged soul as some call it record adopted by the Northern Soul Scene.  There is no genre of music called Northern Soul.  The Northern Scene is an umbrella name for a scene encompassing different genres of music, by and large black R&B and Soul but also pop etc.  You might say there is no R&B in Ray Agee but there certainly is no Northern Soul in it because as a musical genre it doesn't exist.  It is a record that has a beat and tempo demanded by the dancers and DJ's on a small underground music scene although that has developed into something much wider over the years.   The record was recorded by a R&B artist for the black music scene in the area it was recorded and if aimed at any chart it was the R&B Charts.  

 

As for Soultown adding Northern qualities, Soultown didn't have a clue about the Uk scene and when this record and many 100's like it at that time was recorded there was no Northern Soul not by that name anyway.  It wasn't even recorded for the Uk dance scene but the local black market.

 

Spot on Chalky - with one exception to my mind (dammit I was determined not to post anything sensible on this thread...)

You state:

 

 You might say there is no R&B in Ray Agee but there certainly is no Northern Soul in it because as a musical genre it doesn't exist.  It is a record that has a beat and tempo demanded by the dancers and DJ's on a small underground music scene...

 

While the record certainly does fit the bill for the dancers on that scene, it also feels like and R&B tune and has the sort of rhythm associated with R&B as opposed to straight 60s soul stuff ie those records with  the 4 x 4 'Motownesque' sound. I accept that Northern scene has accepted lots of other rhythms but stylistically the Ray Agee 45 feels a lot closer to the likes of AC Reed's "I'm Losing Again" - unless we're saying that's not necessarily an R&B record either.,,

...and that's definitely possible on here!

[Pete S]

There is no genre of music called Northern Soul.  

 

No I'm afraid there is.  We all know what it is, just looks as if you don't. Umbrella my arse, my 84 year old next door neighbour would recognise something like Philly Dog Around The World as Northern Soul, he wouldn't say "Hmm, it might be this sub genre of Northern Soul called R & B but it does come under the umbrella of Northern Soul".

[Pete S]

AC Reed's "I'm Losing Again" 

 

Yes, excellent version that 

[Godzilla]

Yes, excellent version that 

 

 

Really? don't see it myself. Mind you I have got a cold

[Mace]

I totally understand the need by some to stamp the Northern Scenes ownership of discovering such a record and creating its subsequent demand.

No-one is disputing how this record became the holy grail it has to many collectors and DJs.

All that aside, to dismiss it as having zero R&B qualities is quite bizarre. Are we listening to the same record?

If it was a lush motownesque production full of strings and soulful harmonies I could totally understand this view....but it is undoubtably uptempo R&B....maybe more polished than other tracks Ray released, and obviously more soulful than the Blues tracks that he cut.....but we all know that R&B can have a gritty soulful edge and still maintain its identity as an R&B track.

This doesn't steal anything from what the scene has created by discovering and unleashing this monster tune upon the masses, and likewise it shouldn't mask the true origin of wonderful piece of music just to satisfy personal memories of the good old days.....

[Chalky]

No I'm afraid there is.  We all know what it is, just looks as if you don't. Umbrella my arse, my 84 year old next door neighbour would recognise something like Philly Dog Around The World as Northern Soul, he wouldn't say "Hmm, it might be this sub genre of Northern Soul called R & B but it does come under the umbrella of Northern Soul".

 

I know what Northern Soul is, I know what R&B, crossover etc is as well.  They certainly aren't sub genres of Northern Soul.  They are genres of music that make up a scene called Northern Soul, not a genre of music.  Think we'll agree to disagree as we will be arguing black is white all week long.

[Pete S]

I know what Northern Soul is, I know what R&B, crossover etc is as well.  They certainly aren't sub genres of Northern Soul.  They are genres of music that make up a scene called Northern Soul, not a genre of music.  Think we'll agree to disagree as we will be arguing black is white all week long.

 

But if it's not a genre, what are we into?  What are all the websites, events, cd compilations dedicated to Northern Soul?  In HMV, every genre is represented and there's one for Northern Soul compilations as well as Blues, Reggae etc.  What type of music did we or do we all travel round the country to hear?  It's Northern Soul.

[Labeat]

I reckon Mace will kick off his set at Pow Wow next month with Ray Agee like last time.... it's a beautiful mix of SOUL "AND" R&B

[Pete S]

I totally understand the need by some to stamp the Northern Scenes ownership of discovering such a record and creating its subsequent demand.

No-one is disputing how this record became the holy grail it has to many collectors and DJs.

All that aside, to dismiss it as having zero R&B qualities is quite bizarre. Are we listening to the same record?

If it was a lush motownesque production full of strings and soulful harmonies I could totally understand this view....but it is undoubtably uptempo R&B....maybe more polished than other tracks Ray released, and obviously more soulful than the Blues tracks that he cut.....but we all know that R&B can have a gritty soulful edge and still maintain its identity as an R&B track.

This doesn't steal anything from what the scene has created by discovering and unleashing this monster tune upon the masses, and likewise it shouldn't mask the true origin of wonderful piece of music just to satisfy personal memories of the good old days.....

 

Mace I'm not doing this to be difficult but I just can't hear it, all I hear are blazing horns which open a tremendous Northern Soul record...I can't think of many more 100% out and out Northern records.

[Len]

Don't think i want to!

Some people have too much time on their hands!

If the donkey pic is aimed at me carefull you don't get a kick

 

Just kidding mate - Always hated the said record, but each to his own....or should I say 'my own' - the damn dance floor is always packed to it.......could never understand it, but there ya go.......

 

.......I won't stand behind you from now on  

 

All the best,

 

Len  

[Godzilla]

Mace I'm not doing this to be difficult but I just can't hear it, all I hear are blazing horns which open a tremendous Northern Soul record...I can't think of many more 100% out and out Northern records.

 

 

Maybe just how it sounds to your ears Pete. The drums do sound more like they're from a straight uptempo (Northern stomper style) soul record but the prominent guitar sounds like an R&B rhythm guitar.

 

It's one of my favourite Northern Soul tunes but when you listen to it next to something like Jimmy Raye, which you mentioned, there's clearly a different rhythm, with Jimmy Raye being more sort of bang, bang, bang on the fours while Ray Agee is a more jerky R&b style sound - certainly in the verse anyway, but probably not so much on the intro and in the chorus admittedly...

Jesus I sound like I'm arguing against myself here!

[Frankie Crocker]

Ray Agee is a R&B or hard edged soul as some call it record adopted by the Northern Soul Scene.  There is no genre of music called Northern Soul.  The Northern Scene is an umbrella name for a scene encompassing different genres of music, by and large black R&B and Soul but also pop etc.  You might say there is no R&B in Ray Agee but there certainly is no Northern Soul in it because as a musical genre it doesn't exist.  It is a record that has a beat and tempo demanded by the dancers and DJ's on a small underground music scene although that has developed into something much wider over the years.   The record was recorded by a R&B artist for the black music scene in the area it was recorded and if aimed at any chart it was the R&B Charts.  

 

As for Soultown adding Northern qualities, Soultown didn't have a clue about the Uk scene and when this record and many 100's like it at that time was recorded there was no Northern Soul not by that name anyway.  It wasn't even recorded for the Uk dance scene but the local black market.

Chalky - the genre of Northern Soul has flexible boundaries enabling anything that ticks the boxes to be included, so if it sounds Northern, it is Northern. Ray Agee on Soultown was probably only pressed as 100-200 copies, maybe four or eight 25 count boxes judging from the number that have survived, so chart success was evidently not the prime motivator. The UK adopted the Soultown offerings by Ray, Tempos, Sweets, Little Helen etc as they fitted the Northern template and would have been largely ignored had they been early 60's RnB which of course they weren't...