Soul Night Disgrace

[Chalky]

To be pedantic, I don't think personal use actually includes playing them to an audience. Or does it ?

it's nothing to do with copyright playing material to an audience, you need the entertainment (or whatever it is) license for that. The copyright is to stop you making multiple copies.

[Chalky]

Same as I know Santa Claus & the tooth fairy don't exist.

your kidding

you didn't answer the first part about demos

Edited January 13, 2008 by chalky

[SteveM]

it's nothing to do with copyright playing material to an audience, you need the entertainment (or whatever it is) license for that. The copyright is to stop you making multiple copies.

Frpm PRS website

What are your rights as a Copyright owner?

If you own the copyright you possess the sole authority to:

• copy the music
  
• issue, lend or rent copies to the public
  
• perform, show or play the music in public
  
• communicate the music to the public (i.e. broadcasting it via TV, radio, Internet etc.)
  

[Geordiejohnson]

8786 views and 355posts................and i still dont know (or care) who was the person who drew all this venom and spit .

bugger me im tired of this thread now

Geeooooordie

Edited January 13, 2008 by geordiejohnson

[Bazza]

you obviously don't go to the right venues Bazza. I hear expensive and top dollar records every where I go as well as all the indemanders etc.

Mick H plays the Classics as does I think Ted Massey, one DJ on your door stop and t'other not far away. I think I heard the Cautions twice over Christmas and I only went to two venues.

You might be right Chalky,recone I could do with a few tips,any recomendations ?

Bazza

[Geordiejohnson]

Frpm PRS website

What are your rights as a Copyright owner?

If you own the copyright you possess the sole authority to:

• copy the music
  
• issue, lend or rent copies to the public
  
• perform, show or play the music in public
  
• communicate the music to the public (i.e. broadcasting it via TV, radio, Internet etc.)
  

just as i was getting tired Mr M sticks a post in dear to my heart...i bang on about PRS all the time a fav topic of mine..........................No im not going to bore you all again..

Goodnight

Geeoooordie

[Bazza]

Wasn't it the Marvin Gaye version that was released on Motown 7"?

Though why have the Jimmy Ruffin version cut on a carvers when you you can hunt down and play the Marvin Gaye version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhY4InwZNTc

because the jimmy ruffin version,is far far better

Bazza

[Guest Leigh J]

I agree girls playing pressings anyone playing pressings IS a disgrace ,a bleedin piss take .

Reminds me of my younger days when I was about 14 and used to buy an Emi and make it look like a Cover Up , blatent cheating .

Ive given up on venues now but still collect vinyl only proper ones .

There are too many 'DJs' these days , why does everyone feel the need to be a 'DJ' ?

Butch did his time before he took to the decks , he was well known as a collector before this as were a few others , Guy , Ion etc.....

These guys didnt start their own Soul night so they could play at 'DJs'

Fewer Soul Nights Far Fewer 'DJs' more Quality

[Jimmy A]

You might be right Chalky,recone I could do with a few tips,any recomendations ?

Bazza

bestwood bazza ,you know it makes sense,its di making say all of this you know

[Guest]

But if you are a DJ & you play a carver at a gig - that ceases to be for your own listening pleasure.

Yeh`i`ll be promoting the LP, or whatever then sellin`more whatever`s increasing the chance of a propper 45 release,so everybody will be happy then..........all this and i only have the one carver cause i can never be arsed going see carverman.

Heres my source for me only carver;

[Bazza]

bestwood bazza ,you know it makes sense,its di making say all of this you know

all ready sorted a bus out Jim....bout time you did a later spot,never get there early enough

Bazza

[Chalky]

You might be right Chalky,recone I could do with a few tips,any recomendations ?

Bazza

depends how far you want to travel but within probably an hour of you you have the Wolverhampton all-night and Lifeline all-nighter. Thorne next weekend, plenty of biggies and rarities there.

Mick H is out and about most weeks DJing. There's always something if you look hard enough.

[Guest SteveC]

..Tory club was... as expected, Steve very good nite though, great venue and packed

Seen Russ (just ) - he said venue was good. I just had to get my fix of Brighton weirdo's Dave - I seemed to blend in a tad more than usual this time.

[Guest Trevski]

This is getting silly (Well it actualy got silly a zillion post ago, but..) Some on here will argue black is f***ing white just for the sake of it! There is a world of difference between a legitimate original vinyl playing collector/dj making a carvers copy of an lp track cos they can't be arsed carrying the lp's around, or cutting an unreleased track to vinyl so the can play it out, and some t***er playing a boxful of boots of expensive rarities or oldies at a venue! We all know this to be the case, and its nit-picking and pedantic to argue otherwise! The issue was someone playing out and out boot of stuff like the old lou pride, tomangoes, salvadores boots, etc, not the odd carver of an unreleased or lp track. We've had this argument before, and it always spirals down to the minutiae of who owns the rights to what, before disapearing up its own arse. Fed up of it!

[Simsy]

Jesus.

You asked him?

My question was whether it could/should be classed as "evil".

Not arguing that boots should be allowed, although misrepresentation would be a more correct word than deceit in this case imo.

What's the difference? No no squash that, I'm losing the will to live!

I thought I had.

Jesus? Yes. Me? No.

[Jimmy A]

This is getting silly (Well it actualy got silly a zillion post ago, but..) Some on here will argue black is f***ing white just for the sake of it! There is a world of difference between a legitimate original vinyl playing collector/dj making a carvers copy of an lp track cos they can't be arsed carrying the lp's around, or cutting an unreleased track to vinyl so the can play it out, and some t***er playing a boxful of boots of expensive rarities or oldies at a venue! We all know this to be the case, and its nit-picking and pedantic to argue otherwise! The issue was someone playing out and out boot of stuff like the old lou pride, tomangoes, salvadores boots, etc, not the odd carver of an unreleased or lp track. We've had this argument before, and it always spirals down to the minutiae of who owns the rights to what, before disapearing up its own arse. Fed up of it!

ooooooo GET HER!

[Guest in town Mikey]

This is getting silly (Well it actualy got silly a zillion post ago, but..) Some on here will argue black is f***ing white just for the sake of it! There is a world of difference between a legitimate original vinyl playing collector/dj making a carvers copy of an lp track cos they can't be arsed carrying the lp's around, or cutting an unreleased track to vinyl so the can play it out, and some t***er playing a boxful of boots of expensive rarities or oldies at a venue! We all know this to be the case, and its nit-picking and pedantic to argue otherwise! The issue was someone playing out and out boot of stuff like the old lou pride, tomangoes, salvadores boots, etc, not the odd carver of an unreleased or lp track. We've had this argument before, and it always spirals down to the minutiae of who owns the rights to what, before disapearing up its own arse. Fed up of it!

Some good posts on here, and this is one.

Lets not muddy the waters. This is the Northern Soul scene. Either there is integrity in the fare offered, or there isnt. Spliting hairs isnt what the general discussion is about.

Edited January 13, 2008 by in town Mikey

[SteveM]

This is getting silly (Well it actualy got silly a zillion post ago, but..) Some on here will argue black is f***ing white just for the sake of it! There is a world of difference between a legitimate original vinyl playing collector/dj making a carvers copy of an lp track cos they can't be arsed carrying the lp's around, or cutting an unreleased track to vinyl so the can play it out, and some t***er playing a boxful of boots of expensive rarities or oldies at a venue! We all know this to be the case, and its nit-picking and pedantic to argue otherwise! The issue was someone playing out and out boot of stuff like the old lou pride, tomangoes, salvadores boots, etc, not the odd carver of an unreleased or lp track. We've had this argument before, and it always spirals down to the minutiae of who owns the rights to what, before disapearing up its own arse. Fed up of it!

I assume at least some of thats aimed at me. I agree that there is a world of difference between the scenarios mentioned, and I've played Deon Jackson on a carver myself for example as well as cd cuts, but I find it a bit hypocritical to dismiss out of hand the issue of who owns the rights after arguing ovo. It has been talked about before and the thread has gone off at a tangent, but this question disappears up its own arse because it suits most of us to let it disappear so we can go on doing it.

[Soulcarp]

This is getting silly (Well it actualy got silly a zillion post ago, but..) Some on here will argue black is f***ing white just for the sake of it! There is a world of difference between a legitimate original vinyl playing collector/dj making a carvers copy of an lp track cos they can't be arsed carrying the lp's around, or cutting an unreleased track to vinyl so the can play it out, and some t***er playing a boxful of boots of expensive rarities or oldies at a venue! We all know this to be the case, and its nit-picking and pedantic to argue otherwise! The issue was someone playing out and out boot of stuff like the old lou pride, tomangoes, salvadores boots, etc, not the odd carver of an unreleased or lp track. We've had this argument before, and it always spirals down to the minutiae of who owns the rights to what, before disapearing up its own arse. Fed up of it!

got to agree with you trev regards john"o"

[Ged Parker]

In earlier post somebody talked about sound quality of original over bootleg - surely there is a deterioration when a CD track is put onto a carver. To me a carver is an illegal reproduction - a bootleg.

Why not just play the CD? - or will that never be acceptable?

Playing the CD (as long as this is the original release) is fine to my mind but how many OVO Northern rooms have them?

You have the right to transfer recording your have bought to another storage medium as long as it is for your own use so they are not bootlegs if you own the original.

Analogue is a better recording medium than digital so there is no reson why a digital recording should loose any quality when transfered to analogue. As long as the mastering is up to scratch there should be no problems. Often with old boots their problems started with the source recording not being up to it.

[Cunnie]

Frpm PRS website

What are your rights as a Copyright owner?

If you own the copyright you possess the sole authority to:

• copy the music
  
• issue, lend or rent copies to the public
  
• perform, show or play the music in public
  
• communicate the music to the public (i.e. broadcasting it via TV, radio, Internet etc.)
  

Don't get me going with the b45t4rd5 from the PRS Steve

They want to charge me £290 to listen to the radio at work.

There's only 5 of us work there & only 2 of us actually listen to the radio & we both use our own radio's & both pay a licence fee so who the hell do they think they are?

As for boots just take a look at sites like Manship, Brady, Brown etc,

All reputable record dealers but all sell e'm.

Who is there on this site who buy's records who has never owned a boot? Not many if any I bet.

As for them bieng played out I guess it depends on the venue.

Somewhere like the Drax where folks just go for the social side of it & a bit of a dance & a few beers does it matter to the full dance floor? I guess not or they wouldn't be there in the 1st place.

Only thing that matters to them is what comes out of the speakers.

Now take somewhere like Vault of Soul last night or the Friendship,

Totally different crowd & to the punters that attend these nights it does matter.

Different punters who are mostly die hard collectors.

Only thing that matters to them when they're having a dance is what's on the decks.

Personally I regularly attend nights like VoS & Friendship & have never been to Drax but i'm not going to start slagging them for having a good time.

End of the day it's each to their own but it has made an entertaining read on a Sunday afternoon.

PS, Don't forget to pm me vinyl carvers number Steve

[Harry Crosby]

I assume at least some of thats aimed at me. I agree that there is a world of difference between the scenarios mentioned, and I've played Deon Jackson on a carver myself for example as well as cd cuts, but I find it a bit hypocritical to dismiss out of hand the issue of who owns the rights after arguing ovo. It has been talked about before and the thread has gone off at a tangent, but this question disappears up its own arse because it suits most of us to let it disappear so we can go on doing it.

Still never had anyone comment on this point,We know someone who has a fantastic collection, but refuses to play his originals because of the cost to replace & wear, is that acceptable, i mean i know he has the records as ive seen them but to punters he`s just playing boots

[Guest Trevski]

I assume at least some of thats aimed at me. I agree that there is a world of difference between the scenarios mentioned, and I've played Deon Jackson on a carver myself for example as well as cd cuts, but I find it a bit hypocritical to dismiss out of hand the issue of who owns the rights after arguing ovo. It has been talked about before and the thread has gone off at a tangent, but this question disappears up its own arse because it suits most of us to let it disappear so we can go on doing it.

Maybe the 'who has right to what' argument should be a seperate issue Steve, so as not to go off at a tangent from the original question. In all honesty, I really don't give much thought to if the artist or his descendants get a couple of bob from a legitimate re-issue, or if they are being ripped off by a boot. It would be an insignificant pittance anyway, and would hardly change a thing. peoples views on this can be expressed on another thread I think when the whole issue can be argued ad-infinitum by those who care a flying f**k. What I do care about are collectors who pay their dues, spending years gaining knowledge and taste, sweating and scrimping to build a collection of original vinyl, only to be 'gazumped' by some Djing wannabee with a box full of boots!

[SteveM]

Maybe the 'who has right to what' argument should be a seperate issue Steve, so as not to go off at a tangent from the original question. In all honesty, I really don't give much thought to if the artist or his descendants get a couple of bob from a legitimate re-issue, or if they are being ripped off by a boot. It would be an insignificant pittance anyway, and would hardly change a thing. peoples views on this can be expressed on another thread I think when the whole issue can be argued ad-infinitum by those who care a flying f**k. What I do care about are collectors who pay their dues, spending years gaining knowledge and taste, sweating and scrimping to build a collection of original vinyl, only to be 'gazumped' by some Djing wannabee with a box full of boots!

Can't argue there Trevor (maybe about the scrimping bit because its a lifestyle choice to buy vinyl )

Theres one top dj who regularly plays a Del Larks boot quite happily btw. Not only newcomers who do it.

Edited January 13, 2008 by SteveM

[Jumpinjoan]

Unfortunately many of us do jobs that don't work out and we have to move onto something new, it's no different for these artists, they didn't make it in their chosen profession, tough shit.

[Harry Crosby]

Still never had anyone comment on this point,We know someone who has a fantastic collection, but refuses to play his originals because of the cost to replace & wear, is that acceptable, i mean i know he has the records as ive seen them but to punters he`s just playing boots

So no comment then

[Winsford Soul]

Spliting hairs isnt what the general discussion is about.

I aint got any hair to split

Why is everyone getting so serious bout someone playing a few tunes at a soul night. Life goes on. There are far more serious thing in life to worry about.

I collect and play originals thats my choice. But one of my best mates who shall remain nameless is a brill DJ and one of the best dancer,s ever dont care wether he plays original or boots. Thats his choice. His ethos is he would never play something that he wouldnt dance to

Steve

Edited January 13, 2008 by Winsford Soul

[Guest SteveC]

I think every thread,that i have read,(at least) have missed, thee most important point.(Apart from j.j's being a very valid statement) There IS a massive difference in sound quality........and if you do know your onions and are going out to listen to quality, its not just hearing the record you want to hear, if it ain't in its original format, all the time and effort the arrangers and producers spent on it is WASTED.

Balancing the horns, with the strings and the little tings and scratches from the percussionist, get lost in usually flat muffled wishy washy copys'. For me you lose the peeks in the production and clarity you would get from an original 45..even with pops and ticks on the vinyl!!

Please no boots, its hard enough finding somewhere playing real quality, never mind boots to boot!!(way hay)

Not the general rule tho - look at Paris - Sleepless night - as an example - crystal clear on the boot as are many others.

[Guest in town Mikey]

I aint got any hair to split

I used to have long hair, halfway down my back.

When my brother asked me why I cut it off, I said - Cos I can

[Simsy]

Like the new sig, Edmund Burke.

[Guest Matt Male]

Do you know why you hear "the same old stuff" all the time? It's because if is accepatable to play Frank Wilson, Lou Pride etc etc ect on boots if people stuck to originals you'd hardly have heard these over the last 20 years and they'd still be records you wanted to hear.

You can't have it both ways Bazza

Absolutely spot on Ged.

Playing originals only doesn't mean you don't get to hear the big money sounds or the latest thing, which is what the pro-boots argument seems to be. It just means you don't get to hear the big money sounds over and over and over again, which is what happens when everyone plays boots. Everyone buys boots of the latest stuff and we have a hundred identical spots at a hundred soul nights across the countries.

This is the best argument yet for not playing boots, lack of any originality.

[Guest Trevski]

So no comment then

If someone chooses to do that, and can back up the fact with the OV then no probs in my book. We all pretty much know who has what, as regards OV anyhow, or at least have a good idea. If I play Robert Tanner, people in the know, know its real. Those that don't give a f**k don't care anyhow, so alls well. If I got a carver to preserve it, fair game, but I won't cos if it gets knackered, it gets knackered, I ain't bothered that much! (plus I don't get to play out that often that I would wear summat out anyway ) I think those that do care about OVO would soon know if someone was dropping the needle on boots or not, without having to go look-see. If someone you didn't know started spinning heavy-weight tunes, its such a close knit scene that it's a very good chance you would know they are boots! 

As to what peole choose to cut, in order to preserve the original, where do you 

start with that? 

Some may only cut big money stuff, but to some £100 is big money. Others may choose to cut a £50 tune, cos it means a lot to them,

and they want to preserve the original, rather than replace it, as the actual disc has sentimental value. As long as they have the OV, I don't mind what the f**k they do!

Edited January 13, 2008 by Trevski

[Guest eddyg]

Yeah she is actually!! And she,s also a very good mate of mine

JB

yes jb n could be an even better one if you know what i mean shall i be wicked n post a pic nah better not would have a slap of both of you eh n say what you like about her she is a real soulie so she played a few boots well tough on the purists

Edited January 13, 2008 by eddyg

[Mark Bicknell]

This is going round in circles, do us all a favour and change the record just as long as it's original.....lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Simsy]

Do you know why you hear "the same old stuff" all the time? It's because if is accepatable to play Frank Wilson, Lou Pride etc etc ect on boots if people stuck to originals you'd hardly have heard these over the last 20 years and they'd still be records you wanted to hear.

You can't have it both ways Bazza

Absolutely spot on Ged.

If my understanding of Ged's post is - it's alright to play pressings of Frank Wilson and Lou Pride out, because otherwise you wouldn't have heard them much over the last 20 years.. Then with respect, I'm sorry but I strongly disagree.

In the last 20 years you would, should, or could have got these sounds on tape and listened to them at home or in the car. Who has the right to embark on such a false moral crusade?

Having rare original singles played out by dedicated collectors/DJ's is what helps keep the music rare and desirable. If thats uncomfortable for some, then to quote Pete S, tough s**t.

[sister dawn]

If someone chooses to do that, and can back up the fact with the OV then no probs in my book. We all pretty much know who has what, as regards OV anyhow, or at least have a good idea. If I play Robert Tanner, people in the know, know its real. Those that don't give a f**k don't care anyhow, so alls well. If I got a carver to preserve it, fair game, but I won't cos if it gets knackered, it gets knackered, I ain't bothered that much! (plus I don't get to play out that often that I would wear summat out anyway ) I think those that do care about OVO would soon know if someone was dropping the needle on boots or not, without having to go look-see. If someone you didn't know started spinning heavy-weight tunes, its such a close knit scene that it's a very good chance you would know they are boots!

As to what peole choose to cut, in order to preserve the original, where do you

start with that?

Some may only cut big money stuff, but to some £100 is big money. Others may choose to cut a £50 tune, cos it means a lot to them,

and they want to preserve the original, rather than replace it, as the actual disc has sentimental value. As long as they have the OV, I don't mind what the f**k they do!

And who is going to 'Police' that option? will we have to take along photographic evidence of the matrix numbers, receipts of buys, or a statement to say we possess the original, if we decided to play a boot instead of the real mc-coy in order to preserve it?

[Simsy]

This is going round in circles, do us all a favour and change the record just as long as it's original.....lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Sean Hampsey]

If my understanding of Ged's post is - it's alright to play pressings of Frank Wilson and Lou Pride out, because otherwise you wouldn't have heard them much over the last 20 years.. Then with respect, I'm sorry but I strongly disagree.

I read Geds comments, quite the opposite. Ian.

He was saying that people might have 'wanted' to hear these records, when out, had they not been booted and subsequently overplayed over the years (at least that's the way I read it).

Hearing them would have been a pleasure and a 'rarity' because of their scarcity and lack of exposure.

Bootlegging (and programming of such) has over exposed them.

Sean

[Raresoul45s]

I think legally, If you own the Record, Cd or whatever, you are allowed, in law, to make a copy for your own personal use. This became the case way back, when the cassette tape came into popular home usage.

Your right you can and its legal, not sure if its legal to play it in public though and as to whether a artist might be being cheated out of his or her royalties as mentioned in a earlier comment i think they would welcome more exposure of a tune they had long forgotten about. In recent times i can think of the Johnny praye tune Cant get too much love as being a perfect example Butch played it, somone booted a few, lots of people loved it, next thing its on a CD royalties all round.

[Guest Matt Male]

If my understanding of Ged's post is - it's alright to play pressings of Frank Wilson and Lou Pride out, because otherwise you wouldn't have heard them much over the last 20 years.. Then with respect, I'm sorry but I strongly disagree.

In the last 20 years you would, should, or could have got these sounds on tape and listened to them at home or in the car. Who has the right to embark on such a false moral crusade?

Having rare original singles played out by dedicated collectors/DJ's is what helps keep the music rare and desirable. If thats uncomfortable for some, then to quote Pete S, tough s**t.

You've misunderstood Ged's post Ian. He was saying that the big money tunes have become 'the same old stuff' because they have been played on boots, which i agree is unnacceptable.

When he says it's become acceptable he means to the majority, not him or me or anyone who thinks only original vinyl should be played, including you by the sound of things. The clue was in the last part of your quote:

'if people stuck to originals you'd hardly have heard these over the last 20 years and they'd still be records you wanted to hear.'

I couldn't agree more.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Matt Male

[Jellybean]

I agree girls playing pressings anyone playing pressings IS a disgrace ,a bleedin piss take .

There are too many 'DJs' these days , why does everyone feel the need to be a 'DJ' ?

Girls!!! playing pressings aye!!?? i don,t but also i do not have a problem with it if they do play em!!! I know some blokes that play em aswell......you seem to be losing the plot if the floors rammed who gives a F**K!!!! ......JB

[Jellybean]

I agree girls playing pressings anyone playing pressings IS a disgrace ,a bleedin piss take .

There are too many 'DJs' these days , why does everyone feel the need to be a 'DJ' ?

Girls!!! playing pressings aye!!?? i don,t but also i do not have a problem with it if they do play em!!! I know some blokes that play em aswell......you seem to be losing the plot if the floors rammed who gives a F**K!!!! ......JB

[Mark R]

I assume at least some of thats aimed at me. I agree that there is a world of difference between the scenarios mentioned, and I've played Deon Jackson on a carver myself for example as well as cd cuts, but I find it a bit hypocritical to dismiss out of hand the issue of who owns the rights after arguing ovo. It has been talked about before and the thread has gone off at a tangent, but this question disappears up its own arse because it suits most of us to let it disappear so we can go on doing it.

You've said it Steve.............I could equally say that those who chose to side step the finer details do so because some of the arguments are thin at best!

Cheers,

Mark R

[Simsy]

You've misunderstood Ged's post Ian. He was saying that the big money tunes have become 'the same old stuff' because they have been played on boots, which i agree is unnacceptable.

When he says it's become acceptable he means to the majority, not him or me or anyone who thinks only original vinyl should be played, including you by the sound of things. The clue was in the last part of your quote:

'if people stuck to originals you'd hardly have heard these over the last 20 years and they'd still be records you wanted to hear.'

I couldn't agree more.

Hats off to your deciphering skills Matt.

[Soultown andy]

Its all down to the promoters they book the djs,if you only want to here good djs playing original vinyl that dont repeat the same old stuff nite after nite be selective in were you go.Once you have been to a venue that is not to your taste dont go again there are plenty of good venues to support.But at the end of the day the buck for anything that happens at a venue stops with the promoter.

[SteveM]

Hats off to your deciphering skills Matt.

Humour at its very best.

[Soul Shrews]

With regards these copright laws, isn't (or wasn't) there some sort of law where DJs should "log" all records played ? Seem to remember Frank Elson doing an article about it yonks ago

Cheers "off topic" Paul

PS Was replying to a post of chalkys a couple of pages ago ...................dunno what happened I clicked "read last post" and ended up 2 pages ago then replyed thinking it was relevant only to see my post 2 pages later

Edited January 13, 2008 by soul shrews

[Harry Crosby]

Whey hey after 400 replies still not resolved, site was only down two days was you lot saving your posts up?

[Simsy]

Humour at its very best.

Glad you enjoyed it.

[SteveM]

Glad you enjoyed it.

Wrong again Ian. I didn't.