Motown Piano Restored By Macca

[Guest MBarrett]

Don't suppose it will improve anyone's opinion of him - but seems like a nice gesture to me.

 

https://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130401/ENT04/304010385/1361/Historic-Motown-piano-Paul-McCartney-paid-to-have-restored-returns-to-Detroit

 

MB

[Yos Zoul]

Apparently Berry Gordy very generously gave him a t-shirt from the Museumshop in return.

 

[Dave Moore]

I think it's great!  Well done that man I say.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Guest]

he's stll a wanker lol

[Gilly]

Nice gesture,is there any Americans doing/done any simlar input?

[Jim Ohara]

great gesture, pity Mr Gordy didnt think of it himself...........

[Rob Moss]

The original piano used on all the Motown sessions is in Berry Gordy's mansion in Los Angeles. The one McCartney restored came from Golden World. Marvin Gaye recorded 'What's goin' on' at United Sound Systems NOT Golden World (Studio B).

[nsoul2]

He to buy the Vilebrequin shorts himself though

 

Apparently Berry Gordy very generously gave him a t-shirt from the Museumshop in return.

 

[Back Street Blue]

Good effort Mr McCartney

 

Apparently, the Steinway was so badly damaged that it needed a new leg.....so they fashioned one out of an old prosthetic leg that "Paul" still had lying around the house

[Graym]

he's stll a wanker lol

You tosser !

[MrsWoodsrules]

He didn't have to do that.

Well done that man.

I suppose McCartney is like marmite for a lot, but I respect his song writing & certainly in the top three song writing pairs of all time.

probably along with Lieber & Staller or Gamble & Huff IMO. (obviously can't include Holland-Dozier-Holland cos that makes trios people).

 

Aid.

[Jaco]

he's stll a wanker lol

Because?

[Graym]

Because?

Yes - thanks Jaco - a bit more constructive than my earlier knee-jerk reaction in #10

[macca]

I knew this one was gonna be hard to live down...

[macca]

Seriously though, McCartney attracts a lot of flak today but in the 70s everyone used hang on his every word, especially on Parkinson and other talk shows of the period. Beatle power meant something then. I wonder if Lennon would be so villified if he were around today. 

[jocko]

He didn't have to do that.

Well done that man.

I suppose McCartney is like marmite for a lot, but I respect his song writing & certainly in the top three song writing pairs of all time.

probably along with Lieber & Staller or Gamble & Huff IMO. (obviously can't include Holland-Dozier-Holland cos that makes trios people).

 

Aid.

 

Better than Penn/Moman or Penn/Spooner or Ashford/Simpson, and since trios are excluded, although I can't fathom why an extra brain means we can't compare, we can't discuss Armstead/Ashford/Simpson can we, but how about the Holland Bros on their own, Strong/Whitfield,  or various Pied Piper, I could go on but sure you get my drift by now. 

 

I cant get too excited about this hypocritical sell out getting no respect, he deserves little in my eyes anyway  but lets leave his perceived pishness to me out of this for now,  when the heroes of Soul music get very little, on a soul site! 

 

Good comedy and all that. 

Edited April 2, 2013 by jocko

[slimharpo]

He didn't have to do that.

Well done that man.

I suppose McCartney is like marmite for a lot, but I respect his song writing & certainly in the top three song writing pairs of all time.

probably along with Lieber & Staller or Gamble & Huff IMO. (obviously can't include Holland-Dozier-Holland cos that makes trios people).

Aid.

Nearly as good as Pomus/Shuman, Goffin/King, Mann/Weil,Bacharach/David.

[Chalky]

great gesture, pity Mr Gordy didnt think of it himself...........

Yes you would think Gordy would look after the legacy he has left behind with all the millions he has made out of Motown.

[Dave Moore]

I cant get too excited about this hypocritical sell out getting no respect, he deserves little in my eyes anyway  but lets leave his perceived pishness to me out of this for now,  when the heroes of Soul music get very little, on a soul site! 

Good comedy and all that.

Eh? What you on about Jocko? This site is rammed full of respect for our heroes? Explain yerself Sir?

Regards,

Dave

[jocko]

 

Eh? What you on about Jocko? This site is rammed full of respect for our heroes? Explain yerself Sir?

Regards,

Dave

 

Step away from the flamethrower, and I'll answer with my hands up.

My comment was on respect showing on this thread, where most soul songrwriting duos were discarded (and we hadn't even got to Banks/Hampton, Hayes/Porter, staying in the relevant North), disgracefully in my opinion, in preference to some Scouse scally that wrote a song with Love Me Do repeatd 17 times and is heralded a genius! I am desperately trying to keep my personal disdain for him and them out of this, as you can tell.

Therefore I stick by my statement and you will have to waterboard me to change it**

However since you mention it, its interesting over Bank Holiday there are something like 9 musical threads in Freebasing, obviously non soul, but only 2 in ATS, so go figure. And in the week of three musical giants birthdays, Marvin, Gil Scott-Heron and Edwin, only one is highlighted. Often there is more debate about non soul artists than there are about soul.

So I do get frustrated and hence my biting comment coming out on this, possibly unfairly, but probably not!

And yes I know the answer, Mike very politely suggested once I stop moaning and start something about soul, so I will, soon...,

** Only joking so put the basin down, I am a coward so you would only need to glower at me once and I'll surrender.

[Pete S]

Better than Penn/Moman or Penn/Spooner or Ashford/Simpson, and since trios are excluded, although I can't fathom why an extra brain means we can't compare, we can't discuss Armstead/Ashford/Simpson can we, but how about the Holland Bros on their own, Strong/Whitfield,  or various Pied Piper, I could go on but sure you get my drift by now. 

 

I cant get too excited about this hypocritical sell out getting no respect, he deserves little in my eyes anyway  but lets leave his perceived pishness to me out of this for now,  when the heroes of Soul music get very little, on a soul site! 

 

Good comedy and all that. 

 

It's because some people can actually see the wood for the trees.

[Pete S]

  

My comment was on respect showing on this thread, where most soul songrwriting duos were discarded (and we hadn't even got to Banks/Hampton, Hayes/Porter, staying in the relevant North), disgracefully in my opinion, in preference to some Scouse scally that wrote a song with Love Me Do repeatd 17 times and is heralded a genius! I am desperately trying to keep my personal disdain for him and them out of this, as you can tell.

 

 

"The Onion Song" is a masterpiece though isn't it Jock 

[jocko]

 

"The Onion Song" is a masterpiece though isn't it Jock 

I actually like it, and I know I am in a minority of one, but lyrically I will admit it struggles, I suspect a song not quite thought through before recording

Still better than Love Me Do, the song only a pigeon could like.

[Sweeney]

Nothing can make up for his shocking performance at the Olympics opening ceremony.

[MrsWoodsrules]

Hey Jocko.

Get off your high horse.

I only commented that I respect his songwriting skills, which I do.

I actually prefer Harrison as a songwriter to be honest (thinking of 'Something' or 'I'm only Sleeping)

But I digress, I'm no Beatlephile, I just made a generic comment.

As of my actually quoted examples, I used Leiber & Stoller & Gamble & Huff, which I stand by.

As for the writers you quoted, so what? we could sit here all day listing them, I not say they aren't any better, but success wise they don't touch the ones I quoted (and thats the context of my original post,) by a country mile.

Freebasing is for general & non soul comment as far as I know, so just what's your problem?

Take your blinkers off.

 

Aid.

[MrsWoodsrules]

Nearly as good as Pomus/Shuman, Goffin/King, Mann/Weil,Bacharach/David.

Id say Gamble & Huff/Liebre & Stoller more than hold thier own with any of the above, except possibly Barcharach, even thats close run.

Try reading my original post before jumping in feet first on the back of an uptight Jocko..

Aid.

Edited April 3, 2013 by MrsWoodsrules

[Mr Smithy]

I know he didn't have to and it's a nice gesture an all that
but surely the money involved is a pittance to him and it's not like he had to do anything besides
tell the 3rd assistant check writer to send it off and it's tax deductible.
If we all had to dig and cough up a c note apiece that would probably be more meaningful and would hurt


Similar in a way to the Sandy victims concert. In that case he just flew over for a good time,
got a ton of publicity and as  far as I can find out the gelt is "still in the works"
I personally know people still homeless and shattered after that and could have done with a visit from said check writer
with real cash.

If you see post #24 I don't think he's got enough cash to make up for that.

[jocko]

Aid for one of Tebbits troops, the only explanation I can think of for your constant denial of the facts, you are a very sensitive soul. :-))

.

As for the writers you quoted, so what? we could sit here all day listing them, I not say they aren't any better,

Aid.

I suppose McCartney is like marmite for a lot, but I respect his song writing & certainly in the top three song writing pairs of all time.

Aid.

I would suggest the bits above are slightly contradictory old bean, my interpretation of that is you are saying they were better than almost everyone. My list is merely debating that.

And if you are judging purely on success, which isn't clear on above, surely Pete Waterman and one of his many partners is No 1, surely you can see the flaw starting in that argument.

Freebasing is for general & non soul comment as far as I know, so just what's your problem?

Take your blinkers off.

Ehh, its in All About The Soul, and therefore fair game for this soul donkey, blinkered or running free surely!

And last I looked, it’s a debating forum, I threw up some challenges to your top 3 statement and expected some verbal volleys back, not your dummy in my eye! I'll buy you a drink if we ever meet for being a cheeky twat -that’s me not you, so don't go getting sensitive on me again :-))

[Steve G]

Nice gesture indeed, especially since those nice Beatle fellas made so much money re-recording Motown sounds.....Flamethrower now lit.......

[MrsWoodsrules]

Aid for one of Tebbits troops, the only explanation I can think of for your constant denial of the facts, you are a very sensitive soul. :-))I would suggest the bits above are slightly contradictory old bean, my interpretation of that is you are saying they were better than almost everyone. My list is merely debating that.

And if you are judging purely on success, which isn't clear on above, surely Pete Waterman and one of his many partners is No 1, surely you can see the flaw starting in that argument.Ehh, its in All About The Soul, and therefore fair game for this soul donkey, blinkered or running free surely!

And last I looked, it’s a debating forum, I threw up some challenges to your top 3 statement and expected some verbal volleys back, not your dummy in my eye! I'll buy you a drink if we ever meet for being a cheeky twat -that’s me not you, so don't go getting sensitive on me again :-))

 

Okay, Fair doos, Jocko, rather like North Korea will be doing shortly, I'll stand down in a face off.

You have explained yourself well, I think I picked up the wrong tone in your original post & maybe I was a tad sensitive.

Happy to debate any day of the week, and I take that pint off you one day.

 

Aid.

[Guest]

Whilst I have never been a fan of Paul Mcartneys music,it is a well known fact that he along with many bands and solo artists from 60s Great Britain had an enormous amount of affection and respect for R+B artists and musicians from America.Unlike Berry Gordy who used and abused many of them while building his own empire. Chris.

[Agentsmith]

Whilst I have never been a fan of Paul Mcartneys music,it is a well known fact that he along with many bands and solo artists from 60s Great Britain had an enormous amount of affection and respect for R+B artists and musicians from America.Unlike Berry Gordy who used and abused many of them while building his own empire. Chris.

here, here...i think that nails the arguement...his testimony, despite the label he created, was to trample on everybody to get to the top as quick as possible...from his artists, to his songwriters, producers, arrangers, technicians to the beloved musicians...without whom, he would not have had THAT sound. it cannot be stated enough how avidly engaged, pop stars in this country were with the sound of young america. im also pretty sure that the race card wasnt used here to merit their success with cover versions, be they inferior in most cases and dated now, unlike in the states, where barring the entrance of motown, black musicians were exploited. the might and meteoric expanse of the detroit label helped to sweep that aside to a large extent...but thats no excuse to forgive gordy for the ruthless way he got what he wanted.

[Guest MBarrett]

Nice gesture indeed, especially since those nice Beatle fellas made so much money re-recording Motown sounds.....Flamethrower now lit.......

 

Don't forget this covers thing was a two-way affair.

 

cf. the Supremes first album release on Tamla Motown (below)

 

Not the Beatles fault that their covers were brilliant and the Supremes covers were pants.

 

[Steve G]

Eventually it was as barriers eventually broke down, but if you check your history, in the early days it went one way from Black America to both white America and endless British sub standard groups and singers - the Beatles included! 

 

Pow!

Edited April 3, 2013 by Steve G

[Agentsmith]

Don't forget this covers thing was a two-way affair.

 

cf. the Supremes first album release on Tamla Motown (below)

 

Not the Beatles fault that their covers were brilliant and the Supremes covers were pants.

 

this is a typical example of the time, motown & its artists showing a mutual respect for the songwriting of lennon/macartney. personal taste im afraid when it comes to the arguement of inferiority where the polarity is reversed..its different with "the sound" even if the songs are pop, whereas the u.k. offerings are the best they can be, given the circumstances of not having a bathroom converted into vocal booth...or even a snakepit...and the obvious fact, they're white folk trying to mimic a black sound. end of the day, lennon & macartney were good at what they did and they were as much original as any other prominent songwriters of our time. id guess that, even in his wildest imagination, if gordy had asked the duo to compose a song specifically for one of his artists/groups, they would have considered it an honour...and would probably got a hit out of it.

[Guest MBarrett]

I remember reading that at one point Brian Epstein seriously "got one over" on Berry Gordy.

 

They were negotiating over the royalty rate for Money, and Please Mr Postman and You've Really Got A Hold On Me which were all on the Beatles second LP - With the Beatles.

 

Epstein dug his heels in - "one cent more and I pull all the tracks" - and Gordy finally crumbled.

 

Little  did BG know but the LP was already at the pressing plant and he could literally have written his own cheque.

 

I wish I could remember where I read that. It might have been in Raynoma Gordy's autobiography or somewhere like that.  

 

MB

[Pete S]

Nice gesture indeed, especially since those nice Beatle fellas made so much money re-recording Motown sounds.....Flamethrower now lit.......

 

And the royalties went to....the songwriters

[Pete S]

I remember reading that at one point Brian Epstein seriously "got one over" on Berry Gordy.

 

They were negotiating over the royalty rate for Money, and Please Mr Postman and You've Really Got A Hold On Me which were all on the Beatles second LP - With the Beatles.

 

Epstein dug his heels in - "one cent more and I pull all the tracks" - and Gordy finally crumbled.

 

Little  did BG know but the LP was already at the pressing plant and he could literally have written his own cheque.

 

I wish I could remember where I read that. It might have been in Raynoma Gordy's autobiography or somewhere like that.  

 

MB

 

Anyone who knows anything about Brian Epstein and his manner would severely question that anecdote!

[Guest MBarrett]

Anyone who knows anything about Brian Epstein and his manner would severely question that anecdote!

 

Pete

 

We might both be right here.

 

I checked the source of this anecdote and it was quite simple - Berry Gordy's own autobiography (To Be Loved).

 

It's hard to believe he would have included this if it wasn't true - as he was basically admitting that he had been shafted.

 

BUT what I hadn't spotted is that he was negotiating with Epstein's office NOT EPSTEIN HIMSELF.

 

Anyway this is how BG described the incident

 

One day I got a call from a man in the London office of the Beatles' manager, Brian Epstein, telling me the Beatles wanted to record three of our songs for their next album entitled The Beatles' Second Album. The songs were "Money (That's What I Want)," "You've Really Got A Hold On Me" and "Please Mr. Postman."

I had met Epstein only a few months before, when he paid a visit to Hitsville and expressed his and the Beatles' excitement about the Motown Sound, telling us of the great influence it had had on them. Now, as the man from his office explained, they wanted a discount rate on the publishing royalty. Rather than pay us the standard two cents per song, they only wanted to pay one cent and a half.

I told the man how happy I was with the prospect of the Beatles doing our songs, but I didn't want to give a rate. He said that was customary in the business. I said no.

The very next morning the same man called again. He said they were sticking firm to their demand and I had until twelve o'clock noon that same day to wire them an answer.

I looked at the clock. It was 11 :30. "Fine," I said, hanging up the phone.

I quickly called in anybody I could find to help me with this heavy decision-Smokey, my brother Robert, my sister Loucye, Billie Jean, Ralph Seltzer and Barney all came to my office. Once I told them the story, everybody had an opinion, all talking at the same time.

Blllie Jean: "Don't do it."

Robert: "What if they're making up their minds at this very mo­ment as to what is going on that album. You could lose a lot." Barney: "Do it! It's done all the time."

Ralph: "Stick to your guns. We've got great songs."

Loucye: "Special rates aren't that unusual. Other publishers do it, especially if they do more than a couple of songs."

Barney: "We're talking big bucks. They might sell ten million." Me: "Brian Epstein would never not use a great song just to save a half cent. No way. I'm holding out."

And I did-until about two minutes to twelve. I had lost the game of chicken. I rushed a wire off to England agreeing to their demand of the one-and-a-half-cent rate. .

Everybody was jubilant that I had given in, including me-until about two o'clock that same day when we got the news. Capitol Records had the albums in stock at their distributors and were, at that very moment, sending them out to radio stations and stores. The Beatles' new album with our three songs on it, had already been recorded, mixed, mastered, pressed and shipped.

!?#@!!?

 

[Steve G]

And the royalties went to....the songwriters

 

 

...and of course the "American acts" had the hits. Oh no, that bit's not right....Freddy & The Dreamers and Gerry & the Pacemakers and Cilla Black had the hits.

[Pete S]

...and of course the "American acts" had the hits. Oh no, that bit's not right....Freddy & The Dreamers and Gerry & the Pacemakers and Cilla Black had the hits.

 

What Motown hits did those three have?

[Pete S]

...and of course the "American acts" had the hits. Oh no, that bit's not right....Freddy & The Dreamers and Gerry & the Pacemakers and Cilla Black had the hits.

 

yes Steve, the Marvelettes did not have a huge hit with Please Mr Postman, Barrett Strong sold no copies of Money, etc

[Gene-R]

What Motown hits did those three have?

 

True - the only way the Beatles Motown covers hit the chart were by way of their second LP (pretty sure there were no Motown covers on Please Please Me).

Edited April 4, 2013 by Gene-R

[Steve G]

What Motown hits did those three have?

 

I wasn't limiting my comments to Motown Pete, but to black america in general which was royally ripped off by these "charletons" and "Johnny Go Lightlies". As for The Marvellettes Mr Postman huge hit in the UK? When was that then? A hit in the US sure. I have always had a massive chip on my shoulder when it comes to the Beatles and the other Brit bands. It'll never change. That said I love some of the Brit stuff as you know!

[Pete S]

I wasn't limiting my comments to Motown Pete, but to black america in general which was royally ripped off by these "charletons" and "Johnny Go Lightlies". As for The Marvellettes Mr Postman huge hit in the UK? When was that then? A hit in the US sure. I have always had a massive chip on my shoulder when it comes to the Beatles and the other Brit bands. It'll never change. That said I love some of the Brit stuff as you know!

 

I was talking about the USA.  And to be honest, if it wasn't for people like The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Yardbirds etc, there's an awful lot of black artists who wouldn't have sold a bean in the USA, they sold next to nothing until the British groups gave them lip service and covered their songs.

[Citizen P]

this is a typical example of the time, motown & its artists showing a mutual respect for the songwriting of lennon/macartney. personal taste im afraid when it comes to the arguement of inferiority where the polarity is reversed..its different with "the sound" even if the songs are pop, whereas the u.k. offerings are the best they can be, given the circumstances of not having a bathroom converted into vocal booth...or even a snakepit...and the obvious fact, they're white folk trying to mimic a black sound. end of the day, lennon & macartney were good at what they did and they were as much original as any other prominent songwriters of our time. id guess that, even in his wildest imagination, if gordy had asked the duo to compose a song specifically for one of his artists/groups, they would have considered it an honour...and would probably got a hit out of it.

 

 

You don't really believe that THAT album was borne out of "Mutual Respect" do you  ???

[slimharpo]

Id say Gamble & Huff/Liebre & Stoller more than hold thier own with any of the above, except possibly Barcharach, even thats close run.

Try reading my original post before jumping in feet first on the back of an uptight Jocko..

Aid.

I think you jumped in feet first mate. I was supporting your post and suggesting that Lennon/McCartney were nearly as good as the the people I mentioned but I wasn't trying to start an argument. I happen to agree with you regarding Gamble & Huff and Leiber & Stoller (my favourites) and any of the other songwriting duos mentioned. They're all great!

[MrsWoodsrules]

I think you jumped in feet first mate. I was supporting your post and suggesting that Lennon/McCartney were nearly as good as the the people I mentioned but I wasn't trying to start an argument. I happen to agree with you regarding Gamble & Huff and Leiber & Stoller (my favourites) and any of the other songwriting duos mentioned. They're all great!

 

Think I did mate, sorry bout that, I'll try & chill out a bit, seems I've been highly stung this week, obviously not having enough wine me thinks.

 

Aid.

[jocko]

 

I was talking about the USA.  And to be honest, if it wasn't for people like The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Yardbirds etc, there's an awful lot of black artists who wouldn't have sold a bean in the USA, they sold next to nothing until the British groups gave them lip service and covered their songs.

 

So I understand the argument about not selling in the UK but how do you reach the conclusion that British covers improved US sales?

[Pete S]

  

So I understand the argument about not selling in the UK but how do you reach the conclusion that British covers improved US sales?

 

If you have a look on the BBC iplayer there's (hopefully still) a superb documentary called Can Blue Men Sing The Whites which tells the story of how Blues music took off in the UK in a way that it never did in the States, and after endorsements from many of the British beat groups, people in the States started to buy records by Muddy Waters, Little Walter, Howling Wolf whereas before that, people, including Black people, wanted to sweep the Blues away as something to be ashamed of because it reminded them of their downtrodden past.

The Beatles were really enthusiastic supporters of black artists like Arthur Alexander, there are numerous quotes of them telling people to find the originals, Lennon naming Kim Weston as his favourite singer and so on.