on tonite

info and a preview  clip on the bbc page

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p023dc55

 

showing times

 

Fri 25 Jul 2014

21:30

BBC Four

 

Sat 26 Jul 2014

00:30

BBC Four

 

Mon 28 Jul 2014

00:00

BBC Four

I think the fact that there were 90+ venues going in the 80's proves the scene wasn't dead.

When that list was written in 2005, people were using terms like 'death throes' which is just wrong.

Indeed it is wrong but this and moreso numerous threads on Facebook have convinced me that some hoped it was and there's no way of changing that entrenched attitude, very strange way of thinking but there you go. So I'm out of this little debate.

Ciao

Edited July 29, 201410 yr by Byrney

Indeed it is wrong but this and moreso numerous threads on Facebook have convinced me that some hoped it was and there's no way of changing that entrenched attitude, very strange way of thinking but there you go. So I'm out of this little debate.

Ciao

 

You had to be there I suppose.

This view that venues in the 80's weren't busy isn't true. I can remember Morecambe regularly getting 700+, Leicester (Oddfellows) 300+, Stafford 500+, 100 Club 200+, Warrington Parr Hall 400+, Bradford heaving you couldn't move. People that weren't there keep on wanting to promote this. Had a fab time then in busy venues, true over that 10 years some did wax and wain a bit, but so did Wigan in the 70's

 

'If you tell a lie enough times, people think it's the truth'

 

A few Stafford pictures I posted elsewhere that would challenge that common perception, two of the nights pictured are without live acts and had over 1000 in.

 

Edited July 29, 201410 yr by Dave Thorley

PS yes the 70's were the heyday, but the 80's a 'Dead Zone, Dark Ages' get out of here. 

Regularly we had coaches from around the country, the London train would often have 100 bods on it. Don't listen to second hand commentary, ask the people that that lived and enjoyed the 80's. I live and enjoyed the 70's, 80's and beyond, it's all good, but all slightly different

Edited July 29, 201410 yr by Dave Thorley

This view that venues in the 80's weren't busy isn't true. I can remember Morecambe regularly getting 700+, Leicester (Oddfellows) 300+, Stafford 500+, 100 Club 200+, Warrington Parr Hall 400+, Bradford heaving you couldn't move. People that weren't there keep on wanting to promote this. Had a fab time then in busy venues, true over that 10 years some did wax and wain a bit, but so did Wigan in the 70's

 

'If you tell a lie enough times, people think it's the truth'

 

A few Stafford pictures I posted elsewhere that would challenge that common perception, two of the nights pictured are without live acts and had over 1000 in.

 

crowd 1.jpgcrowd 3.jpgcrowd2.jpg

 

 I just typed a 400 word reply to Mr Robert's in response to his usual disrespectful and uninformed comments, but deleted it,  thankfully. Waste of breath.

 

You say it much better. Its like comparing Waitrose to Aldi's both have their uses and both have their market sector, only in the strange planet that holds the multitude of Northern scenes would the director of Poundshop pretend he is in same market as Waitrose.

 

And thank you for choosing one of the very few pictures that features me, even if it only from behind

PPS, people keep commenting that they are not trying to re-write history. But if you refuse the evidence, continue to promote a ill informed second hand version of what really happened, then yes you are.

 

Oh almost forgot Chis King's Hinkley 1000+

Edited July 29, 201410 yr by Dave Thorley

Oh and to try and get back on topic, I though the documentary was okay, one of the more articulate, in dialogue and in filming, and people like Ian Levine and Colin Curtis actually came across well on this. Nothing new, but there is probably nothing new to say about that period. And obviously no new footage. The celebrity bit was laughable as usual, but to be fair these are obviously people that are being recommended by people in the know! And the tribute to Fran was genuine and lovely. A lovely woman who loved and lived that era.

 

To be honest  I am glad it didn't say anything about the later phase, most people on there, as was proven by Kev’s comments, just wouldn’t get it anyway so lets keep it separate. As that scene has borne the bastard child that is much of todays monstrosity. I am quite happy not to be associated with that. If its not big its not good would appear to be the theme. Lets just chuckle quietly, and quietly mockingly at those who don’t get it, as was the theme of the later years……..

PPS, people keep commenting that they are not trying to re-write history. But if you refuse the evidence, continue to promote a ill informed second hand version of what really happened, then yes you are.

 

100% correct, rewriting to make today's watered down product conform, which it doesn't. A good reason why the real history needs to be written David!

100% correct, rewriting to make today's watered down product conform, which it doesn't. A good reason why the real history needs to be written David!

 

To busy writing nonsense on here Jock

I think it's all a fictional trick.... it's more appealing for the public if you present a story where all the movement suddenly disappeared for 20 years.... it's just a matter of the format of the "story" they found to make this new tv product interesting.... 

Interesting to note, in the 80's/90's a fair amount of the venues listed were not busy though, neither were they in the 70's apart from the obvious.

Today is a different story......there are many that pull healthy numbers. Far outweighing what went before IMHO

Where do you get your information from Kev?

Along with many others I was doing two nighters a week, three on a bank holiday, two soul nights and often a dayer, i went out Friday afternoon and got home Sunday night, the majority of nighters were busy. Just about every soul night from memory was busy. Yes we had the odd quiet night but they were out weighed by the busy ones. I wouldn't have carried on going to venues with no one in. People keep going on about how the 80's and early 90's no one went, usually by those with no experience of the time because they weren't there.

Edited July 29, 201410 yr by chalky

remember doing 3 niters too...happy days,..the 80s were magical days for me...

Edited July 29, 201410 yr by wiganer1

remember doing 3 niters too...happy days,..the 80s were magical days for me...

Chalky....I am generalising that the 70's were more popular than a decade or so later. Remember by 1990 the Revival was well underway with the Kings Hall Stoke coming off the back of earlier decade successes like Keele and Winsford, so I have concrete knowledge of those years. 

No one is saying that the 80's didn't have great moments.......and today's revivalists are certainly enjoying some of those musical discoveries for which operators like myself are truly grateful for.

remember doing 3 niters too...happy days,..the 80s were magical days for me...

My busiest days on the scene.

 

I want to know about the Northern Soul scene in its entirety not just from when I started late 70s including the time I had off whilst on the house scene

Does this mean that you haven't been on the scene forever and are no better than those 'goddam returnees' that you constantly berate!!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Regards.

Drew.

Edited July 29, 201410 yr by Drew3

My busiest days on the scene.

 

 

Same for me...

Get a fecking grip and get of your high horses! Northern soul wil never be as big as it was back in the days of the torch wheel casino and Mecca! Fact! Thus was a 60 minute documentary trying to cover nearly 50 years. As a result it didn't do such a bad job.

Does this mean that you haven't been on the scene forever and are no better than those 'goddam returnees' that you constantly berate!!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Regards.

Drew.

Don't be sorry, I can't resist back. So by my showing an open attitude to wanting to learn you'd thought you'd have a dig? Well done you.

I don't berate returnees, as im very clear about I'm one myself having left for 7 years for the house scene. Those who I berate as you put it are those who have come back only wanting to hear the same old 200 records, tell us that we listen to 'rare shit', tell us nothing happened in the 80s and 90s of worth, say if you didn't go to Wigan you've never been into Northern and perpetrate a myth that there was only Wigan, Torch, the Wheel end of.

I'm comfortable with my position on all this

This thread is becoming truly bleeding silly.

We have people who only went in the 70's, maybe even just Wigan, telling people who

went in the 80's that there experience's were better and vice versa, and then people,

who went in both eras, but left for a while, being classed as "returnees".

What a load of utter b*llocks, there are very few, if any, that have attended since the early 70's to

the present day without taking time off from the scene.

Everybody who knows/loves the scene, its music and all it entails just gets on with it with the

rest of the people, who know the score. Whatever "era" they first started.

I didn't do much in the eighties but I know loads of people that didn't start until then

they still have the same feelings about it all, so what's the big issue ?

What is it with some of the f*cking peanut brains on here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited February 7, 201510 yr by pikeys dog
swearing - workplace filters

Don't be sorry, I can't resist back. So by my showing an open attitude to wanting to learn you'd thought you'd have a dig? Well done you.

I don't berate returnees, as im very clear about I'm one myself having left for 7 years for the house scene. Those who I berate as you put it are those who have come back only wanting to hear the same old 200 records, tell us that we listen to 'rare shit', tell us nothing happened in the 80s and 90s of worth, say if you didn't go to Wigan you've never been into Northern and perpetrate a myth that there was only Wigan, Torch, the Wheel end of.

I'm comfortable with my position on all this

I think you may have got the chronological order the wrong way round Byrney. I've been poised over my keyboard all day waiting for this sweet moment.

Don't be sorry, I can't resist back. So by my showing an open attitude to wanting to learn you'd thought you'd have a dig? Well done you.

I don't berate returnees, as im very clear about I'm one myself having left for 7 years for the house scene. Those who I berate as you put it are those who have come back only wanting to hear the same old 200 records, tell us that we listen to 'rare shit', tell us nothing happened in the 80s and 90s of worth, say if you didn't go to Wigan you've never been into Northern and perpetrate a myth that there was only Wigan, Torch, the Wheel end of.

I'm comfortable with my position on all this

Yes I was having a dig I suppose Byrney but only tongue in cheek and only after reading many posts by your good self that seem to do just as I suggested; that is berate so called 'returnees'. The post after your response to me by Kegsy sums it up entirely as I see things. People come to this wonderful music at different points in their lives and I guess once found it never really leaves you whatever other music one might flirt with. However, being on the 'scene' is much more subject to the other influences in life I guess, work, family etc.etc.

I can only speak for myself; My name is Drew and I'm a returnee. I'm dealing with the fact!

However, I am a returnee that wants to listen to and learn about 'rare shit' that has been found and played since I was a younger man.

I think that we are of a similar mind Byrney but please do not keep assuming that all 'returnees' (I did not coin this word by the way) are 'nostalgia re-enactors' as is regularly suggested on threads such as this.

Stay enjoying what you do fella.

Regards.

Drew.

I'm not sure what you mean by pivotal, the only one I would call pivotal would be Wigan

because it completed altered the scene with the mass influx of people who didn't know the

first thing about SOUL music. Lets face it if your introduction to the music was Javells, Nosmo King or

Wigan's Chosen Few its hardly a good grounding.

 

Contrary to popular opinion the scene was/is, before and after Wigan, a scene where

people went to dance to SOUL music.

Contrary to popular opinion the scene was never just about 100mph up-tempo stompers, although when coupled

with a soulful vocal they can take some beating.

Many records played at Wigan diluted the soul content at the expense of the stomping beat.

 

Cleethorpes Pier managed to get the mix between 60s and 70s releases just about right 

so it provided a venue where the people who were into SOUL music could go, and not

just listen to the 100mph stuff. It combined the best of the Mecca and Wigan so at

the time it was pivotal IMHO. Many people at the time were royally pissed off with the Wigan/Mecca war 

and just ignored both by going to Cleethorpes, which had taken up the gauntlet of the true

underground SOUL scene.

There are times when I wish Dave Godin hadn't bothered to coin the phrase Northern Soul, because

for some people, it put more emphasis on the beat than the soulful content of the music.

Ayup Kegsy. You're right that Cleethorpes combined the best of Wigan and Blackpool but it really only served to supplement these iconic venues. I only went to Cleethorpes once and was impressed despite having to sacrifice a night at Wigan. Cleethorpes evolved to cater for the masses east of the Pennines as much as anything with crowds from Leeds, Sheffield and the eastern counties. Back in the mid to late 70's, twenty year old soulies were guided by proximity and convenience when travelling on a Saturday. Back then, despite differing music policies at Blackpool and Wigan, punters tended to stick to their habitual haunts rather than switch venues. Nowadays, much more is made of the Wigan-Blackpool political divide than was apparent then with us youngsters attending and grumbling but not necessarily switching to Cleethorpes. To return to the theme, maybe Cleethorpes was in fact worthy of a mention in the documentary as it made an important contribution in breaking some new sounds and catering for a regional market distant from the north-west.

Get a fecking grip and get of your high horses! Northern soul wil never be as big as it was back in the days of the torch wheel casino and Mecca! Fact! Thus was a 60 minute documentary trying to cover nearly 50 years. As a result it didn't do such a bad job.[/quote.

Incorrect. The scene is now bigger than ever. Every week, more than three or four thousand people attend the profusion of small venues up and down the country. The scene has gone global with European countries, Australia and the US all hosting regular events. Sure, there is no venue attracting thousands of travelling soulies like say Blackpool or Wigan, but the Weekender events at Cleethorpes, Bridlington and Blackpool testify to the current health of the scene. With an upcoming film, there is a real danger the scene may become too big for comfort. Whatever, the scene continues to evolve and looks sure to throw up more material for future documentaries.

Yes I was having a dig I suppose Byrney but only tongue in cheek and only after reading many posts by your good self that seem to do just as I suggested; that is berate so called 'returnees'. The post after your response to me by Kegsy sums it up entirely as I see things. People come to this wonderful music at different points in their lives and I guess once found it never really leaves you whatever other music one might flirt with. However, being on the 'scene' is much more subject to the other influences in life I guess, work, family etc.etc.

I can only speak for myself; My name is Drew and I'm a returnee. I'm dealing with the fact!

However, I am a returnee that wants to listen to and learn about 'rare shit' that has been found and played since I was a younger man.

I think that we are of a similar mind Byrney but please do not keep assuming that all 'returnees' (I did not coin this word by the way) are 'nostalgia re-enactors' as is regularly suggested on threads such as this.

Stay enjoying what you do fella.

Regards.

Drew.

If it's coming across that I'm saying or assuming all returnees, me being one are nostalgia re-enactors than let me state here and now that is not what I mean. As Kegsy notes the vast majority of us have dipped out. My frustration is those that refuse, fingers in ears, eyes tightly shut to acknowledge anything outside their own era and have popped back with a 'well we're back it was a crap whilst we were away but we're here now to sort that" I know many with that attitude.

Ayup Kegsy. You're right that Cleethorpes combined the best of Wigan and Blackpool but it really only served to supplement these iconic venues. I only went to Cleethorpes once and was impressed despite having to sacrifice a night at Wigan. Cleethorpes evolved to cater for the masses east of the Pennines as much as anything with crowds from Leeds, Sheffield and the eastern counties. Back in the mid to late 70's, twenty year old soulies were guided by proximity and convenience when travelling on a Saturday. Back then, despite differing music policies at Blackpool and Wigan, punters tended to stick to their habitual haunts rather than switch venues. Nowadays, much more is made of the Wigan-Blackpool political divide than was apparent then with us youngsters attending and grumbling but not necessarily switching to Cleethorpes. To return to the theme, maybe Cleethorpes was in fact worthy of a mention in the documentary as it made an important contribution in breaking some new sounds and catering for a regional market distant from the north-west.

Each to their own mate.

 

I will let others comment on the bits of your post I have highlighted.

If it's coming across that I'm saying or assuming all returnees, me being one are nostalgia re-enactors than let me state here and now that is not what I mean. As Kegsy notes the vast majority of us have dipped out. My frustration is those that refuse, fingers in ears, eyes tightly shut to acknowledge anything outside their own era and have popped back with a 'well we're back it was a crap whilst we were away but we're here now to sort that" I know many with that attitude.

In which case you've probably been aiming at the wrong target Byrney. Most of the proper DJs from the programme are still very much into hearing new rare stuff. Whenever I speak to Colin, Kev, Richard, Levine and others from that era, the conversation inevitably steers around to "have you heard ?????". It's like it's always been. Levine is the worst of the lot. If anything he's even more fanatical and passionate these days if that's possible. I don't know that I'd label any of us ''returnees'. As long as I've been around I've never lost touch, from finding records in the 80's to putting some of the first CD comps out in the 90s and doing radio shows and writing for Manifesto in the 00s.

But, then what occurred to me, is that Northern Soul is a constantly evolving beast and these pressure points are bound to happen to a scene which has lasted many of us a lifetime. It's really a phenomenon as most other music scenes bite the dust long before.

Whoops, at station. Gotta go...

Ian D

i remember those ads well to me it always looked like played out records and pressings look at that ad thats 1973 oh pretty lady etc, dont really think anything was really happening there...

correct he was told the records to play imo

In which case you've probably been aiming at the wrong target Byrney. Most of the proper DJs from the programme are still very much into hearing new rare stuff. Whenever I speak to Colin, Kev, Richard, Levine and others from that era, the conversation inevitably steers around to "have you heard ?????". It's like it's always been. Levine is the worst of the lot. If anything he's even more fanatical and passionate these days if that's possible. I don't know that I'd label any of us ''returnees'. As long as I've been around I've never lost touch, from finding records in the 80's to putting some of the first CD comps out in the 90s and doing radio shows and writing for Manifesto in the 00s.

But, then what occurred to me, is that Northern Soul is a constantly evolving beast and these pressure points are bound to happen to a scene which has lasted many of us a lifetime. It's really a phenomenon as most other music scenes bite the dust long before.

Whoops, at station. Gotta go...

Ian D

 

A mildly terrifying development IMHO.

Where do you get your information from Kev?

Along with many others I was doing two nighters a week, three on a bank holiday, two soul nights and often a dayer, i went out Friday afternoon and got home Sunday night, the majority of nighters were busy. Just about every soul night from memory was busy. Yes we had the odd quiet night but they were out weighed by the busy ones. I wouldn't have carried on going to venues with no one in. People keep going on about how the 80's and early 90's no one went, usually by those with no experience of the time because they weren't there.

I was saying similar to this on FB about the 70's and got slaughtered by you for saying so !

 

Bazza   

If you remember the 70's (or 80's) you weren't there.

If you remember the 70's (or 80's) you weren't there.

 

Well I always somewhere in the early 70's but not always sure where.

A mildly terrifying development IMHO.

 

The phone calls can last an hour at least. I'm actually sick of Satan's Breed now...... 

 

Ian D 

The phone calls can last an hour at least.

 

Ian D 

 

I know I know he just wont shut up sometimes, a bit like Tony Banks used to be. 

Edited July 30, 201410 yr by Kegsy

I was saying similar to this on FB about the 70's and got slaughtered by you for saying so !

Bazza

Yes because you got your argument and facts wrong and it was others who had a go at you not me.

Edited July 30, 201410 yr by chalky

Yes because you got your argument and facts wrong and it was others who had a go at you not me.

Chalky I have lost all respect for you ,I have no desire to speak to you about anything ,lets just avoid each other  

Edited July 30, 201410 yr by Bazza

Ayup Kegsy. You're right that Cleethorpes combined the best of Wigan and Blackpool but it really only served to supplement these iconic venues. I only went to Cleethorpes once and was impressed despite having to sacrifice a night at Wigan. Cleethorpes evolved to cater for the masses east of the Pennines as much as anything with crowds from Leeds, Sheffield and the eastern counties. Back in the mid to late 70's, twenty year old soulies were guided by proximity and convenience when travelling on a Saturday. Back then, despite differing music policies at Blackpool and Wigan, punters tended to stick to their habitual haunts rather than switch venues. Nowadays, much more is made of the Wigan-Blackpool political divide than was apparent then with us youngsters attending and grumbling but not necessarily switching to Cleethorpes. To return to the theme, maybe Cleethorpes was in fact worthy of a mention in the documentary as it made an important contribution in breaking some new sounds and catering for a regional market distant from the north-west.

 

Furthermore.

 

As someone has already alluded to, Mike Walker/Russ started a rival all nighter in Cleethorpes,

at the Winter Gardens, in direct competition to the Pier.

It was a complete flop.

Would this be because people preferred the "Cleethorpes sound" to the "Wigan sound" at the time ?,

or do you think they went to the Pier because it was half a mile closer to the population centres you quote ?

 

Disclaimer, my geography may not be strictly accurate.

Edited July 30, 201410 yr by Kegsy

In which case you've probably been aiming at the wrong target Byrney. Most of the proper DJs from the programme are still very much into hearing new rare stuff. Whenever I speak to Colin, Kev, Richard, Levine and others from that era, the conversation inevitably steers around to "have you heard ?????". It's like it's always been. Levine is the worst of the lot. If anything he's even more fanatical and passionate these days if that's possible. I don't know that I'd label any of us ''returnees'. As long as I've been around I've never lost touch, from finding records in the 80's to putting some of the first CD comps out in the 90s and doing radio shows and writing for Manifesto in the 00s.

But, then what occurred to me, is that Northern Soul is a constantly evolving beast and these pressure points are bound to happen to a scene which has lasted many of us a lifetime. It's really a phenomenon as most other music scenes bite the dust long before.

Whoops, at station. Gotta go...

Ian D

 

Okay Mr D, I have gone from your biggest fan to back to wanting to give you a kicking (verbally obviously having seen the size of you  )!  Of course you are a returnee in definition, as was I before I scarpered quickly back to my armchair and consolation gin realising that life was no longer for me! This isn't about Levine now searching deep for records, hats off to him, or a bunch of people with vested interst warbling on the phone, its about physical involvement on a scene, during a specific period.

 

You and the people above had no involvement in the scene that people were around in for the years being discussed, at least 3 of the names you mentioned have been off the scene far longer than being on it. Colin Curtis has even said on FB that he shouldn't be asked about Northern after 1977 and kudos to him for being honest. Why can't the rest of you get that. Its not in any way saying you have had no interest in music, its the input and more importantly the respect for a scene that people scarpered from, like the crew of the Titanic ,in my view partly due to a peoples revolution from inside and partly due to the fact it was too hard work, digging and discovering had changed and the concept had changed. And lets be honest, for some ofthe names mentioned, because there wasn't enough money to be made.

 

All of these names mentioned had no interest and no involvement in the missing years, at least two of them were publicly stating the Northen of then was pish. You might still have been turning records over, although there is no evidence of that in said period, and you might have been doing great thing with MasterCuts etc, all of which I bought , but you were about as visible as HG Wells Griffin, and to my eyes as involved in the Northern scene as Gerrard was in the World Cup.

 

None of this is meant as in insult, or derogotary, everyone makes choices, and quite frankly if I had been faced with your life choices at that time, pretty sure I would have followed you exactly, not sure I would have still been alive to type, but sure I would have had a great time. Its also not about disrespecting the contribution people made either, in most cases all have had some influence over my Northern Scene and indeed my life, for which I am thankful, and in yours and Curtis's case a massive influence outside the Northern scene in my music world. 

 

But what galls and gets people angry, and why you got so much stick when you first returned,is you don;t seem to get above. If you read there are others constantly rewriting  history (Keele and Winsford the main venues in 1990, ffs, ) , the constant snipes at places like the 100 club, the constant talking about numbers, constant self promotion skipping over missing years etc etc and the unwillingness to give credit to what happened and with who. Its hugely frustrating. As someone else said, looking at the scene as whole, until the complete takeover of the Nostalgia scene its been an evolution,  there have been periods of revolution, which the 80's was a period, no matter what people try and say,  partly reaction to the changing times but also because a whole new crowd took over. If you don't get why people get annoyed at your statements like above, and more importantly the constant lies others make, then you are never going to get it.  Its always played down by people who weren't there, or have a vested interest in changing the history. Why can't people accept that.

 

We are getting so far off topic and so far back to where we were a few years ago, and as I said I shouldn't care but I do. And your statement is so wrong in so many ways.

 

As I am sure I have misquoted before most History is only his story, and too many muppets think they are him.

 

And a correct quote is respect should be a two way thing, and some people above are quite frankly so disrespectful I cannot believe they get away with it from people I think should know better.

Edited July 30, 201410 yr by jocko

Your last para about respect being a two-way thing is something thats been very much in my mind recemtly Jock! Well said!

Cheers,

Mark R

Okay Mr D, I have gone from your biggest fan to back to wanting to give you a kicking (verbally obviously having seen the size of you  )!  Of course you are a returnee in definition, as was I before I scarpered quickly back to my armchair and consolation gin realising that life was no longer for me! This isn't about Levine now searching deep for records, hats off to him, or a bunch of people with vested interst warbling on the phone, its about physical involvement on a scene, during a specific period.

 

You and the people above had no involvement in the scene that people were around in for the years being discussed, at least 3 of the names you mentioned have been off the scene far longer than being on it. Colin Curtis has even said on FB that he shouldn't be asked about Northern after 1977 and kudos to him for being honest. Why can't the rest of you get that. Its not in any way saying you have had no interest in music, its the input and more importantly the respect for a scene that people scarpered from, like the crew of the Titanic ,in my view partly due to a peoples revolution from inside and partly due to the fact it was too hard work, digging and discovering had changed and the concept had changed. And lets be honest, for some ofthe names mentioned, because there wasn't enough money to be made.

 

All of these names mentioned had no interest and no involvement in the missing years, at least two of them were publicly stating the Northen of then was pish. You might still have been turning records over, although there is no evidence of that in said period, and you might have been doing great thing with MasterCuts etc, all of which I bought , but you were about as visible as HG Wells Griffin, and to my eyes as involved in the Northern scene as Gerrard was in the World Cup.

 

None of this is meant as in insult, or derogotary, everyone makes choices, and quite frankly if I had been faced with your life choices at that time, pretty sure I would have followed you exactly, not sure I would have still been alive to type, but sure I would have had a great time. Its also not about disrespecting the contribution people made either, in most cases all have had some influence over my Northern Scene and indeed my life, for which I am thankful, and in yours and Curtis's case a massive influence outside the Northern scene in my music world. 

 

But what galls and gets people angry, and why you got so much stick when you first returned,is you don;t seem to get above. If you read there are others constantly rewriting  history (Keele and Winsford the main venues in 1990, ffs, ) , the constant snipes at places like the 100 club, the constant talking about numbers, constant self promotion skipping over missing years etc etc and the unwillingness to give credit to what happened and with who. Its hugely frustrating. As someone else said, looking at the scene as whole, until the complete takeover of the Nostalgia scene its been an evolution,  there have been periods of revolution, which the 80's was a period, no matter what people try and say,  partly reaction to the changing times but also because a whole new crowd took over. If you don't get why people get annoyed at your statements like above, and more importantly the constant lies others make, then you are never going to get it.  Its always played down by people who weren't there, or have a vested interest in changing the history. Why can't people accept that.

 

We are getting so far off topic and so far back to where we were a few years ago, and as I said I shouldn't care but I do. And your statement is so wrong in so many ways.

 

As I am sure I have misquoted before most History is only his story, and too many muppets think they are him.

 

And a correct quote is respect should be a two way thing, and some people above are quite frankly so disrespectful I cannot believe they get away with it from people I think should know better.

 

This is getting a bit out of hand mate. I have NEVER said ANYTHING derogatory about the scene post my early years. Truth is I was busy with other stuff from circa '76 onwards and only dipped the occasional foot into the scene but I still watched from afar. I have nothing but undying respect for anyone who was still breaking records and getting an audience throughout the post Wigan years.  

 

People need to get this whole thing into context. The remit of the program was to cover the 70s Northern Soul youth culture first and foremost and that's pretty much what it did. Had the program been covering anything 80s, 90s or even 00s, then I certainly would have declined to be on it and would have pointed them in the direction of the people who could speak for those respective eras had they asked.

 

This whole thing blowing up kinda has astounded me sonewhat and I concur with Kegsy's view that neither period is better than the other. I am also rapidly coming to the view that the age of people very much forms their view. I'm 59 now, so I was 16 in 1971 just as I was getting into Northern, so naturally those incredible few years from say, 1971-76 form the foundation of my experience during a key phase of my life. Anyone between 50-55 will naturally cite late 70s Wigan as being a key period, anyone 45-50 will cite the early 80s and 100 Club/Stafford etc, etc and so it goes on. This shouldn't denigrate anything. Everybody's learning curve is different, not better or worse.

 

Ian D     

Edited July 30, 201410 yr by Ian Dewhirst

Just some feedback from me ! 

Everyone of my 'mainstream' friends who watched it thought it was great!

Not one of them collects records or goes to any do's though and I expect this documentary will not make them do so in the future.

I didn't expect anything less than this from them of course and when in the past they talk 'Northern Soul' to me they have also no interest in matrix numbers, white promos or reversed labels but always name drop a 20 greatest hits type tune and I have no problem with that if that is what they like.

It was a TV show with music they liked with some characters they may have recognised and they enjoyed it for what it was.

If it made them buy a CD the next day then it was probably from amazon or a download and not a high street shop so that in itself is an indicator of how the world has moved on so much from the so called glory days/demise/underground/commercial venture cycle of the scene.

If however any documentary or perhaps the forthcoming film brings just one real enthusiast to the current scene then that will be a welcome addition.

I respect who did what, went where, wore what, played what and find it all a fascinating insight to the development of the soul music scene in the UK, but the politics are not for me - apart from OVO (Let's not do that one again though. It's just because I'm a collector!)

Everything has what we call a history..... and if it has not become extinct then keeps it moving on and evolving.

Simple to me.

Now back to the sales section !!!

Well said Jocko proper Dj,s sounds very condescending As I stated earlier their have been many Dj,s since 1981 who in my humble opinion were far superior and promoters who loved to keep the scene they loved going not for profit but because they loved what they were doing.Believe me I am one of those promoters and I know that their a lot more like myself as long as I know that I am happy promoting and Dj,ng .if the Soulies are happy I'm happy. SIMPLE,33years have passed those years have not been forgotten to the soul people who know the truth ie,100 club ,Bradford, Blackburn.Keele. To name but a few and all the new venues today everybody has their own piece of the soul jigsaw Less egos, Less ballyhoo, more good soul music more good times.

GOD BLESS MICK LYONS

This is getting a bit out of hand mate. I have NEVER said ANYTHING derogatory about the scene post my early years. Truth is I was busy with other stuff from circa '76 onwards and only dipped the occasional foot into the scene but I still watched from afar. I have nothing but undying respect for anyone who was still breaking records and getting an audience throughout the post Wigan years.  

 

People need to get this whole thing into context. The remit of the program was to cover the 70s Northern Soul youth culture first and foremost and that's pretty much what it did. Had the program been covering anything 80s, 90s or even 00s, then I certainly would have declined to be on it and would have pointed them in the direction of the people who could speak for those respective eras had they asked.

 

This whole thing blowing up kinda has astounded me sonewhat and I concur with Kegsy's view that neither period is better than the other. I am also rapidly coming to the view that the age of people very much forms their view. I'm 59 now, so I was 16 in 1971 just as I was getting into Northern, so naturally those incredible few years from say, 1971-76 form the foundation of my experience during a key phase of my life. Anyone between 50-55 will naturally cite late 70s Wigan as being a key period, anyone 45-50 will cite the early 80s and 100 Club/Stafford etc, etc and so it goes on. This shouldn't denigrate anything. Everybody's learning curve is different, not better or worse.

 

Ian D     

I too am 59 ,and I completely agree with this paragraph 

 

Bazza  

Having given up the will to live mid way through the usual arguments on here I thought I'd just skip to the bit where i post my thoughts on the documentary and for what its worth I thought it was probably one of the better articulated ones, even Levine came across OK(!), and as a look at the scene in its 'glory days' I thought is was alright. Good toons, coverage of all the basics from fashion to drugs, music etc (and lets be honest, if you want to have a true representative historical documentary on the scene from birth to now you anit going to get it in a 1 hour documentary.) and overall ok.

I enjoyed Ian D's comments throughout. total empathy for everything he said and thats the point to me, not really covered on the programme but true none the less - that is, no matter if you were a Wheeler, A Torchist, a Casino regular, A Mecca Ritz or Cleethorpes devotee or a 80's Soulie or present day clubber the general truth is still there, we all share the same collective experiences throughout the decades, that same passion for the music and that feeling of being part of a collective movement that makes you different from all the Div's. We may argue endlessly about the state of the scene and the politics but at the end of it all we all just Soulies obsessed with the music.

I was interviewed in the press in the 80s and the question asked was 'can you explain what is it about Northern Soul that arouses such passion and fanatical dedication?' My answer was simple: if you can put into words the feeling Northern Soul generates in you then you anit truly feeling it! So, we are always going to be fighting a losing battle when it comes to trying to explain it in the media IMHO.

That said enjoyed the doc, lovely tribute to Fran, looking forward to the film as Elaine is a top girl and passionate as we all are and if this doc or film or the CD releases get a younger generation to take their first footsteps into the twilight world we have known and loved then its all good. 

 

People need to get this whole thing into context. The remit of the program was to cover the 70s Northern Soul youth culture first and foremost and that's pretty much what it did. Had the program been covering anything 80s, 90s or even 00s, then I certainly would have declined to be on it and would have pointed them in the direction of the people who could speak for those respective eras had they asked.

 

 

Ian D     

 

I think this is actually a fair comment. In the context of 56 minutes of TV it has to flow and have a good story to keep the civilians tuned in. It's not just about trying to ram 50 years of history into less than an hour of TV.  I thought it achieved that flow.

 

It did give some explanation to the 76 split, Levine with his "I went too far with Sylvester" and Russ justifying playing pop stompers "because they got a good reaction". The Tony Blackburn bit was entertaining tho. It was a lowpoint and it was good to hear him describe his record as "awful" with so much conviction in his voice. I don't know why Norman Jay was on at all, since I can't remember him ever being around in the 70s....this the same guy that used to stand around listening to us collectors at the Soul Bowl stall at Victoria record fair in the 1990s....very odd choice for a talking head.

 

That said there is a LOT that never seems to get mentioned, post Wigan to 97 really as everyone says....the European side of things (and beyond - Oz, US etc), the younger generation in London (who aren't trying top relive 1975 and are discovering their own sounds) the modern soul scene which ran in parallel in the 80s.....and certainly had its moments....etc . etc. You are never going to cover it all in less than an hour.

If we accept the brief as explained by those involved (I.e. 70's glory years), am I the only one that thinks the title of the program was ill conceived?

It was Northern Soul:Living For The Weekend wasn't it? Not suffixed with "in the 70's".

That is the reason an otherwise good, and certainly one of the better of its type, program ultimately disappointed.

Like I said elsewhere, this is compounded by the fact that now got a mention, but nothing between 81 and now.

Is that so hard to understand?

Cheers,

Mark R

Actually I'd like a reminder of what happened from 78-2005 as I can't remember anything due to having a very good time -

This view that venues in the 80's weren't busy isn't true. I can remember Morecambe regularly getting 700+, Leicester (Oddfellows) 300+, Stafford 500+, 100 Club 200+, Warrington Parr Hall 400+, Bradford heaving you couldn't move. People that weren't there keep on wanting to promote this. Had a fab time then in busy venues, true over that 10 years some did wax and wain a bit, but so did Wigan in the 70's

 

'If you tell a lie enough times, people think it's the truth'

 

A few Stafford pictures I posted elsewhere that would challenge that common perception, two of the nights pictured are without live acts and had over 1000 in.

 

crowd 1.jpgcrowd 3.jpgcrowd2.jpg

 

Stafford TOTW nighters still hold a special place in mine and many others heart. As Dave said often rammed and loads of great experiences there - and all this despite Daves stylish perm and tash at the time - who knew! The legacy of those stafford toons is still around today and along with the 100 Club and the whole 6Ts Newies movement carried the scene forward in the 80's. As did the Modern Soul scene flourishing at the time. 

 

This is getting a bit out of hand mate. I have NEVER said ANYTHING derogatory about the scene post my early years. Truth is I was busy with other stuff from circa '76 onwards and only dipped the occasional foot into the scene but I still watched from afar. I have nothing but undying respect for anyone who was still breaking records and getting an audience throughout the post Wigan years.

People need to get this whole thing into context. The remit of the program was to cover the 70s Northern Soul youth culture first and foremost and that's pretty much what it did. Had the program been covering anything 80s, 90s or even 00s, then I certainly would have declined to be on it and would have pointed them in the direction of the people who could speak for those respective eras had they asked.

This whole thing blowing up kinda has astounded me sonewhat and I concur with Kegsy's view that neither period is better than the other. I am also rapidly coming to the view that the age of people very much forms their view. I'm 59 now, so I was 16 in 1971 just as I was getting into Northern, so naturally those incredible few years from say, 1971-76 form the foundation of my experience during a key phase of my life. Anyone between 50-55 will naturally cite late 70s Wigan as being a key period, anyone 45-50 will cite the early 80s and 100 Club/Stafford etc, etc and so it goes on. This shouldn't denigrate anything. Everybody's learning curve is different, not better or worse.

Ian D

Read carefully Ian, I didn't say you had, I referred to others, and its clearly documented what others had said and evidence on this thread alone of others rewriting history. My whole post on that, and my frustration, is directed at your challenge on Byrnie’s definition of returnees. People seem to take that as some sort of insult, and some then rewrite history to get round it. So I am challenging your perception that any of the people you mentioned had any influence, and more importantly deserve credit for the 80s onwards, with some of the names trying desperately to discredit people and venues involved and rewrite history. Its my pet hate.

This wasn’t a comment on the documentary, hence why I am saying its off topic. I have commented above, and admitted to being pleasantly surprised at some of the people who I normally expect to just talk about themselves. I didn’t really expect it to go any further. And still say I wouldn’t have wanted it to, other than in a part 2.

And again I have never said any period was necessarily better, and totally agree, as I have said elsewhere, people’s era would and should define their glory years. However the 80’s onwards has always been a period specific people have tried to change and comment out. Its in the documentary with one of the names. So I think that’s worth challenging your theory that all these people have been super enthusiastic, its just not true. It’s a constant frustration why specific people try to change that and won’t accept it happened happily, and better in all honesty, without them.

Its about credit where credits due.

Edited July 30, 201410 yr by jocko

I thought it was poor, full of sloppy generalisations and completely inaccurate assumptions like the factory workers and miners bit, the 70s north of England depression and the "you worked for a pittance and spent your Saturday nights on the dancefloor venting your anger". Even as a skint student in 1969/70 my weekends always started on a Thursday night at North Park Kettering dancing to 'Here I Go Again', 'Judge Baby I'm Back' etc and took it on from there. The country may have been depressed but we weren't.

 

I could waste the whole day going through it so I'll just mention two points.

 

Norman Jay did a disservice to the singers, producers, songwriters etc when he said something like "a lot of the records played were just demos". That's a lack of knowledge about 60s black American music and the Northern Soul scene which makes you wonder why he was asked his opinion if he cold get it that wrong.

 

The Tony Blackburn sideshow doesn't really deserve correcting but as it shows the state of Wigan at the time I'll tell it how it was.  Mick Smith and I were record hunting down Portobello Road and went in a shop that only had a few LPs. I found the TB Polydor one with 'I'll Do Anything' on it so we bought it for 50p. Back at the flat we realised how dross it was but for a laugh decided to get an acetate cut and send it up to Keith Minshull who was DJing at Wigan then. We called it Kenny Gamble (the writer) and didn't tell him who it really was so that the joke would go further. Unbelievably it did and went massive which confirmed our view that Wigan had gone a long way downhill in those recent months. It was contrived as a joke about Wigan and worked.

 

Well it wasn't much of a youth culture after the 70's was it? I was 19 in 1976 and joined the army, going to Wigan was one of the worst experiences of my youth and I don't pretend otherwise. I was never on the Northern Soul scene and never claim to have been.

I suppose they could have made a program about how the scene died on its arse after 1981 apart from a couple of 100 die hards, then documented a number of clubs where only Stafford seems to have made any real lasting impact, they could follow that with the 90's where there seemed so little going on that even a div like me started up a club just to hear some music I like. Followed by the 2000's with the rise of the fancy dress weekender, then today with a fractured scene split between nostalgia and the new new thing.

But it would be of no interest to the general public who tend to watch TV so why would they make it? You giving the documentary a 2 will not even register as far as the BBC are concerned they won't give a flying f*ck what you think because the program was not aimed at people who have spent the best part of 50 years on the Northern Soul scene - it was made for the general public.

I thought that compared with the usual rubbish that gets aired on the subject of Northern Soul it was actually quite good - even if it did miss out the essential discussion of matrix numbers.

 

Yes but it was made for people like you who were never on the scene until their later years. So job done. Your repeated mantra of Wigan was shit because of your one night there, shows why the scene of your days was full of Divs, and they continue to breed.