Would Anyone Grade This Record Ex+ ? (Bought On Soul Source)

[Ulrich Leitl]

bought this record on soul source. seller doesn't answer my mails. this is the worst record i ever bought sold as ex+. i can't believe it!

Edited November 30, 2011 by chalky
Added the scan via site as Divshare attachment taking ages to load on a mobile device. Can we not use Divshare if possible and use the full editor for scans. Thankyou.

[Jayboy]

No way

Edited November 29, 2011 by chalky
removed the (three times) quoted post/scans

[NEV]

Label maybe

[Moxey25]

i had one off here worsera than that and that was graded m minus over400 quid to

[Gasher]

had one worse advertised as m- for 3 grand from a feckin dealer...

[Ted Massey]

had one worse advertised as m- for 3 grand from a feckin dealer...

still sore Rich

[Raresoul45s]

had one worse advertised as m- for 3 grand from a feckin dealer...

You getting Neurotic Gasher I seem to remember hearing about that.

I had an Ex+ once off hear which had a 2" crack but didn't affect play so what was i moaning about was the reply.

Cheers Darren

Edited November 29, 2011 by BROWNIE

[kevinsoulman]

I BOUGHT JOE TEX YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT ON DIAL OFF OF SOMEONE ON HERE AND WAS SENT

YOU BETTER GET IT ON DIAL

ONLY CHEAP BUT WILL HE ANSWER MY PM'S WILL HE FCUK

A BIT OF CUSTOMER SERVICE WOULD GO A LONG WAY

HE SHOULD REIMBURSE YOU FOR THAT ONE WHOEVER IT WAS

KEV

[Modernsoulsucks]

Speaking as the sales forum moderator I would hope that any seller on here would stand behind what they sell and accept returns for a refund where the buyer is not happy.

There is the feedback facility to leave negative comments where the deal falls short of what is to be expected. Of course that is scant consolation if the seller is avoiding sorting the matter out.

If Raresoulnet and Kevinsoulman would PM me with the details I'd be grateful.

And if anyone has problems in the future with sellers or buyers that they are unable to settle I would like to know. I may not be able to force a resolution but it may be that I can prevent it happening to other members where either party is not fulfilling their reasonable obligations.

Gasher,

You've told that story so many times I'm getting nightmares about it.

ROD

[boba]

I bought a "VG" record from someone here recently. I thought I was getting a great deal on a rare record.The labels were almost entirely ripped off. The vinyl was trashed. There was a huge warp and a crack. The record was like below poor. It did play through though.

[boba]

Also, the first record I ever bought on here was graded "Ex-" and it was VG-. Didn't leave a good impression. The dude is always posting records for tons of money, I assume they're trashed.

[Kris Holmes]

yeah, Soul Source Sales Forum: The home of 45s which are graded visually & optimistically by candlelight since 2003

[Nick Soule]

I bought a "VG" record from someone here recently. I thought I was getting a great deal on a rare record.The labels were almost entirely ripped off. The vinyl was trashed. There was a huge warp and a crack. The record was like below poor. It did play through though.

VP-

[Guest Ivor Jones]

bought this record on soul source. seller doesn't answer my mails. this is the worst record i ever bought sold as ex+. i can't believe it!

theyre having a laugh........demand a full refund and then return the 45,,,,,,,,,, I`d say that is VG at best looking at the state of it.....Also, if people cannot abide by simple honest rules about customer satisfaction on here,then they shouldnt be selling on here....Dont get me wrong,you get very difficult customers on here too,BUT, the bottom line is, if a customer is not satisfied with the purchase then a full refund is appropriate......Going to ground and not answering messages and emails is just not on when youre a seller on here.......

Piss Poor if you ask me...

Ivor

Edited November 30, 2011 by chalky

[Benji]

Doesn't surprise me at all. Well known dealer once bought a VG+ record off me via Ebay only to advertise it on here as M-. Seems like some sellers think it's ok to overgrade records on here because we're all mates, aren't we?

[George G]

I've bought 6-7 records from SS over two years. My main complaint is that two of the records were polished. Polishing seems to be a real problem in the Northern scene. I returned one but the other was acceptable for the grade given. Lately though I've been sticking with buying within the US. It's just a lot easier.

[George G]

Doesn't surprise me at all. Well known dealer once bought a VG+ record off me via Ebay only to advertise it on here as M-. Seems like some sellers think it's ok to overgrade records on here because we're all mates, aren't we?

This also happens with 'mod' and garage records bought by Europeans from the US and resold on other (mostly) forums and online communities. Their reasoning is that they can deal with people in their countries who are eBay-phobic.

[Pete S]

There's a solution to this and it's to get a definite gradings key pinned and make sure everyone who sells on here follows it, then if the item is not as described there'll be no arguments. The record in the scan looks vg++. If it were EX+ it would be basically as new with maybe a couple of paper sleeve removal marks on it.

Sellers who do not reply to complaints and ignore customers like that should be banned from selling on here because it makes the rest of us look bad. If I sell something and I've overgraded it or missed a problem, the first thing I want to do is make the customer happy, not play hide and seek with him and ignore him (or her).

[Guest]

There's a solution to this and it's to get a definite gradings key pinned and make sure everyone who sells on here follows it, then if the item is not as described there'll be no arguments. The record in the scan looks vg++. If it were EX+ it would be basically as new with maybe a couple of paper sleeve removal marks on it.

Sellers who do not reply to complaints and ignore customers like that should be banned from selling on here because it makes the rest of us look bad. If I sell something and I've overgraded it or missed a problem, the first thing I want to do is make the customer happy, not play hide and seek with him and ignore him (or her).

i can vouch for you on that score pete..i remember buying a tune from you and when you asked me if i was happy with the condition i replied...yes...all 5 pices are in mint condition...you were horrified and offered a full refund

atb moldie

[Pete S]

i can vouch for you on that score pete..i remember buying a tune from you and when you asked me if i was happy with the condition i replied...yes...all 5 pices are in mint condition...you were horrified and offered a full refund

atb moldie

Yes I remember that well mate

[Prophonics 2029]

I've bought 6-7 records from SS over two years. My main complaint is that two of the records were polished. Polishing seems to be a real problem in the Northern scene. I returned one but the other was acceptable for the grade given. Lately though I've been sticking with buying within the US. It's just a lot easier.

Agree with you George, I don't mind a few light marks but when you know you have a record that's had a lot of the real damage rubbed off to rip you off its very disappointing.

https://www.popsike.com/northern-soul-CAM-CAMERON-They-say-CAPRI-LISTEN/4737363834.html

Edited November 30, 2011 by Prophonics 2029

[Missgoldie]

What is a "polished" record, I've not heard this term before.

Sometimes I think collectors on here grade the records they are selling as what they bought them as rather the grade after they've destroyed them with crappy styli and rough handling.

I paid 4 figures recently for a record well over graded and when I complained I was told the English and American grading systems were different I was also told I couldn't return it because I'd had it cleaned with a VIP cleaner

[Pete S]

What is a "polished" record, I've not heard this term before.

Sometimes I think collectors on here grade the records they are selling as what they bought them as rather the grade after they've destroyed them with crappy styli and rough handling.

I paid 4 figures recently for a record well over graded and when I complained I was told the English and American grading systems were different I was also told I couldn't return it because I'd had it cleaned with a VIP cleaner

What a feeble excuse, nobody can tell if you've had it VIP cleaned just by looking at it, you have to stick to your guns and try and get that refund.

[Missgoldie]

Pete, I ended up keeping the 45 and getting a partial refund. I did find it strange that they wouldn't take it back because I'd cleaned it. Could this tie in with polishing? What IS polishing?

[Chalky]

Will say the grading is better in the States but there are good and bad dealers/sellers everywhere not just over here. I won't buy of ebay unless there is a scan or I know the dealer and I always check the feedback.

As Rod said use the feedback on here, warn others of your problems, you should be able to find the sale item easy enough. If others see a problem with a seller then others will avoid him or her.

[Pete S]

Pete, I ended up keeping the 45 and getting a partial refund. I did find it strange that they wouldn't take it back because I'd cleaned it. Could this tie in with polishing? What IS polishing?

Polishing is when the actual top surface of the record is taken off to make it look like a much higher condition record. It can be done in numerous ways including coating with various substances or physically rubbing the surface down. In all cases, it makes the record sound worse than it was in the first place. On British label records from the EMI group (Stateside, Liberty, UA, Columbia and so on) this can be done easily by using steam on the surface, cleans them up mintish.

[Paddy Ferry]

if soul source cannot enforce a refund policy or prevent members from being ripped off,then they should not allow sales .there are too many people conning and robbing.

[Missgoldie]

if soul source cannot enforce a refund policy or prevent members from being ripped off,then they should not allow sales .there are too many people conning and robbing.

There is no way soul source could enforce a refund policy. Sellers can usually be shamed into doing the right thing for fear of getting a bad rep.

My biggest concern is "gift" payments through paypal with private sales as this leaves you with no legal recourse to get your money refunded should the item not match up to it's description.

[Jumpinjoan]

Here's me thinking I've got boxes full of trashed VG records when in fact they're all Ex+

[Modernsoulsucks]

This topic has obviously widened out somewhat.

If I could just address Gainsoul's point [and Gainsoul you need to post an introduction to upgrade from BOOT to MINT. I'll PM with details later should you be unsure how to do that].

Transcations on here are between members and where there is a dispute the first recourse is for members to sort it out between themselves, as stated in the Sales guidelines. As the forum moderator I can only get involved if the matter is either reported to me or I notice negative feedback has been left. I check regularly.

The assumption is,Gainsoul,that members are honest and trustworthy and that matters can be sorted amicably. I can only try to help after the fact. Since September, and my rigged election to this high office, I have got involved on a few occasions and most have been sorted out. Where it becomes evident that there is an element of "rip-off" there is no intention of allowing those sellers to continue selling on here to protect against future complaints and to preserve the reputation of the sales forum as a safe place to buy or sell records. Whilst it is true that the site cannot guarantee that it can force a resolution or get you your money back from a dishonest seller I don't see that as any different from such as Ebay. In fact I'd say there is more scrutiny on here than on Ebay.

There are some outside protections for those using the site. For instance if you pay by Paypal which is why members are advised to look into paying by "GIFT" where those safeguards may not be in place.

The bottom line is that I cannot take any action if I don't know about it. Boba may not be happy with his deal but this is the first I've known about it and I assume he came to some arrangement with the seller. If not he could have got in touch with me to see if I could help.

As for Pete's suggestion re a grading policy I could come up with something as I was a record dealer for some years and am pretty strict as to condition. It may require a bit of sorting so we're all on the same page. For instance Pete's VG++ estimation in this case. To me that is a US grade which means almost Mint. The Cameron 45 is somewhere between a VG and a VG+; more than average wear due to many fine scuffs.

If anyone [George,Boba,Pete?] wants to PM me with their suggested grading scale I'd be happy to look at it and hopefully come up with something we all can agree upon.

As to other points. Like MissGoldie I have no idea what "polishing" is, especially as regards to US 45s. I assume this is a variety of techniques. I know the "hotwater" treatment" on UK EMI 45s and that's it.

Finally as regards grading, and this is not an excuse for those who overgrade, it does depend on what light you look at the 45 in. It may be that some sellers are not aware of this which when coupled with wishful- thinking leads to inaccurate descriptions.

ROD

[KevH]

yeah, Soul Source Sales Forum: The home of 45s which are graded visually & optimistically by candlelight since 2003

Grading by natural daylight at home is very different from holding under a lamp.Honesty is the best policy.

I've hung onto records,shall we say,at the lower end of price with optmistic grading,because i couldn't be arsed sending em back.When a records worth a bit,of course its a different matter.

[Steve L]

The light you look at the record in is critical IMO, the room where I keep my records has a 3x50w halogen light fitting and under that you see every possible mark. However in the other rooms where there's ordinary light bulbs the record can look completely different, also in bright daylight its different again. Minefield really, as someone who only buys M- whenever possible I'm finding my range of sellers shrinking through experience.

I've had (supposedly) M- records that looked like someone had skated over them

[Pete S]

THE LIGHT IN MY ROOM HERE IS TERRIBLE WHICH IS WHY I ALWAYS PLAY GRADE EVERYTHING, IT MIGHT LOOK MINT BUT PLAY VG SO YOU HAVE TO PLAY THEM ALL (sorry about caps)

[boba]

I think the problem is that there seems to be two types of UK graders (at least on here). Those that are ultra-conservative and those that grade trashed records as VG or higher. There doesn't seem to be any in between. I feel like I am in between as I'm not the most conservative grader in the world but I don't grade trashed records as VG. I sold a record to someone here recently and they felt it was overgraded and we came to an agreement with a partial refund. But when I get trashed records from people here I usually avoid getting into anything with them (unless they are major records). I just avoid dealing with them in the future. Many people here are so hot-headed that they can't take any negative criticism without it blowing up into a big thing, often publicly.

re: polished records, while some people are unscrupulous enough to polish their records, some people here may have gotten records from certain shady dealers in the states who polish their records, and they don't know what polishing is and what to look for, and they pass on the records as is. I find it's relatively rare for UK sellers to polish records. There are some australian sellers I've dealt with that do, I just avoid them now.

[Missgoldie]

re: polished records, while some people are unscrupulous enough to polish their records, some people here may have gotten records from certain shady dealers in the states who polish their records, and they don't know what polishing is and what to look for, and they pass on the records as is. I find it's relatively rare for UK sellers to polish records. There are some australian sellers I've dealt with that do, I just avoid them now.

What are the signs of a polished record? I've certainly got records that look good but play badly. The idea of making a record look better to the detriment of the sound quality is appalling,

[Spacehopper]

i also bought from a seller on here who desribed the record as ex,it had a you tube clip which wasnt the item for sale but also said it had been selling for upto $300 on ebay

wasnt in manships book and i liked it a lot so went for it...when the tune arrived it had numeruos 'light' scratches through havin no sleeve at one time or another i would guess and a nasty 5mm scatch which on one of my decks (and a friends) 'stuck'...on the other it popped...

the seller did answer my message but told me they used it regular and never had a problem withit and thought it was ex....they implied i was lying and thought it was strange when i was asking for a only partial refund......i didnt want a full refund as it was from europe and after checking popsike and seeing NO sales anywhere like £300 and them telling me they had played it out on various decks without ever having a problem i had a feeling if i sent it back it would never reach them...if you know what i mean!...after about 4 messages back and forth i gave up....told them i would put it down to experience...a couple of weeks later they messaged me saying they had some new sales coming up soon and would maybe do me a discount on one of them...they were good tunes but to be honest well over priced so needless to say i didnt bother..

i have played the tune out but have to check on every deck i use and chringe a bit when the 3 or 4 pops are about to be heard

ive also had tunes on ebay that were not as described and both have been refunded in full...

BUT this is also the ONLY time ive had a problem with ss sellers ...

i will continue to buy from here with confidence...but i buy a lot of tunes and dont have much cash to do it so sellers......once bitten twice shy...you lose in the long run

dean

[Guest sharmo 1]

Polishing is when the actual top surface of the record is taken off to make it look like a much higher condition record. It can be done in numerous ways including coating with various substances or physically rubbing the surface down. In all cases, it makes the record sound worse than it was in the first place. On British label records from the EMI group (Stateside, Liberty, UA, Columbia and so on) this can be done easily by using steam on the surface, cleans them up mintish.

I believe it used to be refered to as skimming didn't it Pete ? regards Simon.

[Pete S]

I believe it used to be refered to as skimming didn't it Pete ? regards Simon.

That is correct Simon. That stuff I was trying to remember which people used to skim with was called T-Cut.

[Guest]

Yes I remember that well mate

im sorry pete i should have let ppl kniw i was on a wind up...the record was as stated and packed so well it took me 15 minutes to get to it

regards moldie

[Modernsoulsucks]

I think we should all bear in mind that the vast majority of deals go through here without a hitch. Especially if you buy off me [reprimanded myself for a blatant off-topic plug]

Most of the instances referred to above are to do with grading rather than non-receipt of records. However where that leads to refusal to refund it is a matter of concern.

Buyers should read the "fine print" so to speak and check whether sellers accept returns and it is so stated. Sellers should ALWAYS state that, if they are professional in their approach and provide good customer service.

Since becoming the mod for sales I have had to intervene on three occasions [Raresoulnet is now the fourth] since end of September. In two of those it was sorted but then the reasons were not down to dishonesty.

The only problem outstanding Im aware of [and Spacehopper Im not psychic so please feel free to PM me if you want back-up when you feel you're getting nowhere] is that of the Seller Soulful Illusion on here. Some of you have no doubt seen Wilxy's posts about this. If this seller does not sort this out he will NOT be posting further sales ads.

So let's not overestimate the problem. There are not loads of people "conning and robbing" members. There are isolated instances which I will do my best to deal with if you only report them to me at the time.

ROD

[boba]

I agree with Rod, most sellers here are actually more conservative graders than me (although I don't feel I'm an inaccurate grader). However, the few poor graders not only screw everyone but they charge the same prices for their grade as a conservative grader, so it really makes you feel ripped off..

[Spacehopper]

hi rod...to be honest thought about naming and shaming but didnt even think that i may be able to get help from ss!...stupid really,doh!!...but in the end got fed up with seller saying they didnt think there was anything wrong and as it played 'ok' on one deck just decided to keep it and check it first everytime i played it out on other decks....

cheers

dean

[boba]

hi rod...to be honest thought about naming and shaming but didnt even think that i may be able to get help from ss!...stupid really,doh!!...but in the end got fed up with seller saying they didnt think there was anything wrong and as it played 'ok' on one deck just decided to keep it and check it first everytime i played it out on other decks....

cheers

dean

this brings up another issue actually. play grading alone is totally BS. I have trashed records that play perfectly, that doesn't make the record NM. Although it's fine to note if the record plays differently than you would expect from the visual grade. But I want a visual grade of any record I buy.

[KevH]

Time for grading under different conditions?

VG+ under light = VGU

VG+ natural light.+ VGN

[Kris Holmes]

The idea of a strictly adhered to grading system would be immediately rendered null & void because of the "Rose Tinted" approach some people bring to grading. There is no way the record pictured is VG++. It is VG, maybe VG+ if it plays ok. The real problem exists from VG- through to Ex (or even now Ex+ according to the example given). Traditionally there is a range of conditions covered between those grades but now it seems as though they can all be used relatively interchangeably to pull the grading of thrashed 45s up to a higher price bracket. Unfortunately the UK Ex grade seems to have dropped over the last 5 or so years so that it is no longer in line with the US VG+/VG++ but is now more a kin to VG-/VG & that really sucks. Because of this, VG+ has also taken a hit in both the UK & US as confusion abounds.

I have had skimmed 45s from the UK, US & Australia & they suck too. Send that practice back to the doo-woppers please & put your kettles, car polish & cutting compounds away.

[Kris Holmes]

this brings up another issue actually. play grading alone is totally BS. I have trashed records that play perfectly, that doesn't make the record NM. Although it's fine to note if the record plays differently than you would expect from the visual grade. But I want a visual grade of any record I buy.

agreed, a grade derived at by a combination is preferred, eg looks VG but plays NM or looks NM but plays with noise etc.

[Mark Bicknell]

Perhaps all sellers should state that a full refund will be given if buyers are not happy with records on all sales posts then this will avoid any future problems on refunds for bad or dodgy condition records.

Mark

[Pete S]

agreed, a grade derived at by a combination is preferred, eg looks VG but plays NM or looks NM but plays with noise etc.

Exactly - all you have to do is give a true and accurate description

e.g.

THE BEAS - WHERE DO I GO FROM YOU - DEE GEE DJ VG++ 20

Plays fine, couple of marks, and DJ COPY info has been crossed out

[Pete S]

Perhaps all sellers should state that a full refund will be given if buyers are not happy with records on all sales posts then this will avoid any future problems on refunds for bad or dodgy condition records.

Mark

Good idea. I'd be happy to do that. Well I do offer that anyway I just forget to put it on because people know I will take them back if there's a problem.

[Spacehopper]

this brings up another issue actually. play grading alone is totally BS. I have trashed records that play perfectly, that doesn't make the record NM. Although it's fine to note if the record plays differently than you would expect from the visual grade. But I want a visual grade of any record I buy.

agreed and i did mention this to the seller that even if the record had never 'stuck' or popped for them on any deck (which i find impossible to believe) aswell as the dozens of light scratches that did not affect play there WAS a scratch which could be felt so it was by no means ex condition

dean