The Truth About Cover Ups

[Sheep]

Wasn't always about rarity sometimes cuz the artists wouldn't be given a second listen if played under real name, think B. J. Thomas - I don't have a mind of my own, at the time it was played. Covered up as David Huff by Ian Clark, sorta more soul sounding name but fictitious.

Sometimes cuz a dealer had a shed load to shift and the mystique of a cover up, helped get them out the door.

Then other times to head off the bootleggers, still a problem 2day.

And then at times just for fun, Guy Hennigan.............

He comes a close second, I still think the king was Richard Searling. A clue would often be in the C/U name, taking something from the real records credits, ie writer or producer to use as the cover up name. Then there were the fun ones, Top Cat, Phantom Janitor etc.

Those that get on their high horse about it, just lighten up, it's fun and all part of the great folklore of the scene. If it helps a record take off, then when it does get un-covered there is more chance of a legal re-issue and maybe some money going to the guys behind it. Records staying in obscurity helps no one, soul fans never get to hear them and artists don't get the chance of some belated limelight or a few $'s if it then gets re-issued.

Long may the fun and mystique continue....................

[Sheep]

small point.but david huff was not a fictious name. he was lead for david and giants.

[Godzilla]

I thought he chose David Huff because that's the lead singer of David and the Giants - the tune is a bit reminiscent of Ten Miles High.

 

 

There you, show I'm getting old, think your right there

 

 

small point.but david huff was not a fictious name. he was lead for david and giants.

 

Is that why you're called Sheep then...?

[Premium Stuff]

Yes, yes - another chance to use this!! 

[Ernie Andrews]

  I hope one day some smart alec lawyer has a bee in his bonnet and decides to report a cover up to the trading standards under Misrepresentation- Then if a precedent is set we will see how many more are then covered up  What a silly comment was made about protecting playlists and that some Djs go to venues just to add to their playlist- Hey Mister Cover-up man - how did you hear lots of records?  Venues was it? Next you will be saying you cover up to protect your playlist from internet listening!  

[Ian Dewhirst]

I've never really been into 'em. I just prefer knowing the actual record and artist, so cover-ups for me were always a minor source of annoyance. Most of the good cover-ups were still rare records anyway. Covering 'em up was just an exercise in frustration most of the time...

 

Ian D

[Carty]

Going back to the Phantom janitor  debate , whatever the truth of the matter, that picture of the old toilet attendant was magic and in this instance i am going to believe that he was the phantom janitor, regardless of proof to the contrary . 

[Ian Dewhirst]

Going back to the Phantom janitor debate , whatever the truth of the matter, that picture of the old toilet attendant was magic and in this instance i am going to believe that he was the phantom janitor, regardless of proof to the contrary .

LOL me too Carty! That image is indelibly printed in my brain now. Amazing that a bloke of that age could make such a great record ay?

Ian

Edited June 7, 2013 by Ian Dewhirst

[jocko]

  I hope one day some smart alec lawyer has a bee in his bonnet and decides to report a cover up to the trading standards under Misrepresentation- Then if a precedent is set we will see how many more are then covered up  What a silly comment was made about protecting playlists and that some Djs go to venues just to add to their playlist- Hey Mister Cover-up man - how did you hear lots of records?  Venues was it? Next you will be saying you cover up to protect your playlist from internet listening!  

 

What a lot of pretentious tosh Steven. How long were you actually on the original Northern scene before being reborn!

 

Its an integral part of the Northern scene, like it or lump it. If you don't get it you don't get Northern. Simples.

 

And I don't agree with the rare bit either, Guy H was a master of the 2 week cover up, Kittens & Jan Bradley anyone? Got some play out of them then uncovered them and watched all of us scamper to Black Grape/Soul Bowl etc in the hope of getting them rather than give Guy the £50 for his now uncovered monster. Its a scene thing, not a music thing.

[Ernie Andrews]

What a lot of pretentious tosh Steven. How long were you actually on the original Northern scene before being reborn!

 

Its an integral part of the Northern scene, like it or lump it. If you don't get it you don't get Northern. Simples.

 

And I don't agree with the rare bit either, Guy H was a master of the 2 week cover up, Kittens & Jan Bradley anyone? Got some play out of them then uncovered them and watched all of us scamper to Black Grape/Soul Bowl etc in the hope of getting them rather than give Guy the £50 for his now uncovered monster. Its a scene thing, not a music thing.

Not pretentious at all Jock and when I was at Global I disagreed with Richard about covering up. Infact to prove a point and nearly got myself strung up for it - I covered a US pop song label with something that had a soul artist name etc- Sold it to a DJ at Wigan who then the week after wanted to tear my head off. I was making a point at the time and Ian Dewhirst agrees with me Jock  so just because someone disagrees with you they are  "Pretentious" are they? Yes its been part of the scene just like bootlegs/Emidiscs etc but to me its one of the dafter parts of the scene. If its rare its rare! but covering up a record thats not and selling it for an inflated price is imo less than honest! and created some nasty situations. Anyone trying to decieve(Which covering up does) opens up their credibility to be challenged!

PS You only get one life in this world mate so I dont believe in being reborn! I live for today "Ave MIthras Sol Invicte"

P.S Drugs were part of the scene as well but I never took any - Am I pretentious for that behaviour as well?

Edited June 7, 2013 by Ernie Andrews

[Chalky]

I would think a DJ covering a record to protect his playlist and retain some exclusivity and some unscrupulous dealer covering a pop record and ripping someone off is two totally different matters.  Anyone who covers up a pop record and blatantly rips off a customer deserves a good kicking.

 

A no lawyer would take on what you suggest as he knows full well he would never win the case.

[Dave Thorley]

Not pretentious at all Jock and when I was at Global I disagreed with Richard about covering up. Infact to prove a point and nearly got myself strung up for it - I covered a US pop song label with something that had a soul artist name etc- Sold it to a DJ at Wigan who then the week after wanted to tear my head off. I was making a point at the time and Ian Dewhirst agrees with me Jock  so just because someone disagrees with you they are  "Pretentious" are they? Yes its been part of the scene just like bootlegs/Emidiscs etc but to me its one of the dafter parts of the scene. If its rare its rare! but covering up a record thats not and selling it for an inflated price is imo less than honest! and created some nasty situations. Anyone trying to decieve(Which covering up does) opens up their credibility to be challenged!

PS You only get one life in this world mate so I dont believe in being reborn! I live for today "Ave MIthras Sol Invicte"

P.S Drugs were part of the scene as well but I never took any - Am I pretentious for that behaviour as well?

 

 

As I said in an earlier post 'Lighten up'. What has always made this scene FUN is the music,mystic, un-written laws, codes, odd people, and a liberal helping of chemicals (not that I approve of course !!!).

 

If all is know, every record is standard recommended retail price, a venue every town, and DJ's can access every record, then all you have is your local disco.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Dave Thorley

[Pete S]

 

 

If all is know, every record is standard recommended retail price, a venue every town, and DJ's can access every record, then all you have is your local disco.

 

That happened though Dave - with the coming of cd's.  Fantastic as they were for enabling people to get music they could only dream about, it also meant anyone and everyone had access to all of the top sounds.

[Guest MrC]

That happened though Dave - with the coming of cd's.  Fantastic as they were for enabling people to get music they could only dream about, it also meant anyone and everyone had access to all of the top sounds.

 

Hence all the soul night ovo debates that have taken place.

[Ernie Andrews]

I would think a DJ covering a record to protect his playlist and retain some exclusivity and some unscrupulous dealer covering a pop record and ripping someone off is two totally different matters.  Anyone who covers up a pop record and blatantly rips off a customer deserves a good kicking.

 

A no lawyer would take on what you suggest as he knows full well he would never win the case.

But isnt that what some people did Chalky - for example covering a record that was actually on the back of a soul or  pop hit (Cant remember which one/s it was) at least I went looking for the guy I sold it to to give him his £7 back and after he calmed down he took my point that even cheap records could be covered an then sold on to people for inflated prices - IMO ( And has been for 40years- Just for Jocks sake) its no better than bootlegging and selling as originals - its meant to deceive. 

By the way - as for litigation - Never say Never!

[Dave Thorley]

That happened though Dave - with the coming of cd's.  Fantastic as they were for enabling people to get music they could only dream about, it also meant anyone and everyone had access to all of the top sounds.

 

Very true Pete, Many soul nites are little more than your local disco. So some DJ's still cover up records to have some exclusivity, add a little mystic and create some of the fun of the chase. That's why some of us still travel miles in this country and abroad to hear these said DJ's play, cause you ain't gonna hear these 45's otherwise, and long may it continue .........

 

This weekends massive turn out at Cleethorpes will be testament to that, People traveling to from all over europe to enjoy the mystic of 'The Strange World Of Northern Soul' (Copyright Ian Levine !!!!) sadly I won't be there.............

[Jim G]

I have said this before on here, Cover Ups were part of the scene in beginning at the Wheel, Mecca, Torch, Casino so DJ's could have their exclusive "secret" sounds, it was also alleged to stop bootleggers pressing big sounds of the day and, to a large extent ego.

 

Covering up a record today is pure ego IMHO. We are supposed to be fans of soul music and want to support the artists who recorded the songs in the hope they might, just might, get a few dollars from a legal re-release on CD or Vinyl. To cover up the record denies us all the opportunity to go find it somewhere. And if it is super rare, what is the point in covering it up anyway!?

[Chalky]

It isn't meant to deceive in a callous deceitful illegal money making scam way though is it.  Is simply meant to put people off finding the disc for a period of time while some exclusivity is kept by the DJ or collector who has put the work in finding the rare record(s) in the first place.  Whether it remains rare once uncovered is another matter.   Most of the top end DJ's covering records up are covering up rare records that are part of their set, not ripping anyone off, not even the artists.   

[Steve G]

Chalkster, you'll never convince the "no tails" on this one m8.

 

It does partly come down to money, perhaps more than ego in having something "exclusive".

 

As others have said finding an unknown record in this day and age is bloody hard work, bloody expensive and a massive gamble, not comensurate with the modest DJ fees that most have to endure on the northern / rare scene. It's this point that the "old romantics" who thought it was "all good fun and part of the rough and tumble of the scene in the 70's" (a time when new discoveries were being found every week and records were turned over much faster), lose the argument.

 

Put it in perspective - a new discovery back then was roughly commensurate with a DJ fee for an hours "booking" - some a bit more, some less. And there were always good new discoveries waiting to be had on trips to the USA, Soul Bowl etc. These days a new discovery is a rare event of itself, and is likely to be 10 times a DJ fee for an hours booking, sometimes more, if you consider (unless you get lucky) some genuine new discoveries going for £2k etc. A hell of a lot of money in anyones book. So whether the purists like it or not the DJ is investing a lot of money in something new far more than their colleagues back in the 70s ever were for a single piece of vinyl. So I do understand why that DJ would want some exclusivity in it.

 

And then with the internet opening up access to every mom and pop in the USA, unless it's an acetate, the new discovery may well turn up in some form of "quanity", so suddenly your expensive exclusive "newie" is being hammered by everyone else / mis-credited as their discovery etc.

 

Anyway having said no chance of convincing others, I am not sure why I have written the above .....you either get it or you don't.

[Chalky]

Chalkster, you'll never convince the "no tails" on this one m8.

 

Actually Steve, I realised that about after the first topic on this subject, this must be topic 57 or something

[Premium Stuff]

Chalkster, you'll never convince the "no tails" on this one m8.

 

 

What's a "no tail"?

[Steve G]

Sorry it's from "The League of Gentlemen".

[Guest MrC]

What's a "no tail"?

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/clips/p00gg4lz/the_league_of_gentlemen_tubbs_the_bride/

[Ian Dewhirst]

Chalkster, you'll never convince the "no tails" on this one m8.

 

It does partly come down to money, perhaps more than ego in having something "exclusive".

 

As others have said finding an unknown record in this day and age is bloody hard work, bloody expensive and a massive gamble, not comensurate with the modest DJ fees that most have to endure on the northern / rare scene. It's this point that the "old romantics" who thought it was "all good fun and part of the rough and tumble of the scene in the 70's" (a time when new discoveries were being found every week and records were turned over much faster), lose the argument.

 

Put it in perspective - a new discovery back then was roughly commensurate with a DJ fee for an hours "booking" - some a bit more, some less. And there were always good new discoveries waiting to be had on trips to the USA, Soul Bowl etc. These days a new discovery is a rare event of itself, and is likely to be 10 times a DJ fee for an hours booking, sometimes more, if you consider (unless you get lucky) some genuine new discoveries going for £2k etc. A hell of a lot of money in anyones book. So whether the purists like it or not the DJ is investing a lot of money in something new far more than their colleagues back in the 70s ever were for a single piece of vinyl. So I do understand why that DJ would want some exclusivity in it.

 

And then with the internet opening up access to every mom and pop in the USA, unless it's an acetate, the new discovery may well turn up in some form of "quanity", so suddenly your expensive exclusive "newie" is being hammered by everyone else / mis-credited as their discovery etc.

 

Anyway having said no chance of convincing others, I am not sure why I have written the above .....you either get it or you don't.

 

Blimey, that's putting it into a whole different league Steve. 

 

I'm not saying that I don't understand the reasons for it. I've just always found cover-ups annoying, even when I did 'em myself.......

 

Ian D   

[Premium Stuff]

Sorry it's from "The League of Gentlemen".

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/clips/p00gg4lz/the_league_of_gentlemen_tubbs_the_bride/

 

So a "no tail" is a woman right? 

 

Richard

[Steve G]

No in The League of Gentlemen a "no tail" was a "human being" (i.e someone without a tail). In the context of finding a wife for "David" (Tubs & Edwards son / monster) it would obviously have been a female, but a "no tail" is not "gender specific"......

[Premium Stuff]

No in The League of Gentlemen a "no tail" was a "human being" (i.e someone without a tail). In the context of finding a wife for "David" (Tubs & Edwards son / monster) it would obviously have been a female, but a "no tail" is not "gender specific"......

 

Gotcha! 

 

You learn something new every day they say 

[SHEFFSOUL]

I have Stratoliners down as a Pat Brady play first?

 

Jo Ann Garrett was c/u as The Passionettes.

 

Stratoliners was on a '74 winstanley list..so it must have been known by then..even if only a few..

[Ernie Andrews]

Cant remember the name of the woody allen film where two people are discussing about a certain person when out from behind a screen comes the said person to put them right ! Id love that to happen with a cover up in that a member of the band accidentally hears a radio show with a Dj playing a cover up that he has found in some old collection. The said member then gets his lawyer to sue the Radio station who in turn sue the DJ for mis- representation. 

How would you feel if you had written a book or play or some other piece of work just for someone else to pass it off as something else!

 

 My Sweet Lord / Hes so fine

Edited June 8, 2013 by Ernie Andrews

[Ian Dewhirst]

Cant remember the name of the woody allen film  where two people are discussing about a certain person when out from behind a screen comes the said person to put them right ! Id love that to happen with a cover up in that a member of the band accidentally hears a radio show with a Dj playing a cover up that he has found in some old collection. The said member then gets his lawyer to sue the Radio station who in turn sue the DJ for mis- representation. 

How would you feel if you had written a book or play or some other piece of work just for smeone else to pass it off as something else!

 

 My Sweet Lord / Hes so fine

 

Makes me wonder how many people bought the bootleg of Richard Temple's "Let's Do The Duck" and still think it's Richard Temple....?

 

Ian D

[Dave Thorley]

Cant remember the name of the woody allen film  where two people are discussing about a certain person when out from behind a screen comes the said person to put them right ! Id love that to happen with a cover up in that a member of the band accidentally hears a radio show with a Dj playing a cover up that he has found in some old collection. The said member then gets his lawyer to sue the Radio station who in turn sue the DJ for mis- representation. 

How would you feel if you had written a book or play or some other piece of work just for smeone else to pass it off as something else!

 

 My Sweet Lord / Hes so fine

 

 

Funny enough, I had a record covered up as Spaceark, a member of the group contacted me and said that isn't us. Explained the whole thing of c/u's, well a short version, he thought it was funny and was happy to let me carry on.

 

Did change the name to something else though, after some thought decided it sounded more like another group.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Dave Thorley

[Ernie Andrews]

Funny enough, I had a record covered up as Spaceark, a member of the group contacted me and said that isn't us. Explained the whole thing of c/u's, well a short version, he thought it was funny and was happy to let me carry on.

 

Did change the name to something else though, after some thought decided it sounded more like another group.

Brilliant Dave! Thank goodness he had a sense of humour- Im telling you Dave that if that had been someone like Betty Lavette she would be after blood. Ive interviewed a few of our so called Lesser known artists and some of them have not a very positive attitude about the industry, feeling ripped off, so any opportunity to them is seen as worthwhile. I love your record hunting stories and the scary ones as well. It must have been a surprise for the Spaceark member to contact you. Did you discuss "Do what you can do"

ATB Steve

[Mick Holdsworth]

Makes me wonder how many people bought the bootleg of Richard Temple's "Let's Do The Duck" and still think it's Richard Temple....?

 

Ian D

 

 

Luckily we were all put right on that one when the Simon S sent over the "Originals", and we could all see it was really James Conwell Jr. on Patches :D !!

Cheers

Mick

Edited June 8, 2013 by Mick Holdsworth

[45cellar]

Some cover up names have stuck over the years.

I have the LP Total Eclipse with the 6 O'clock track yet I still think of it as Supertime for some reason when I hear it.

[Pete S]

Some cover up names have stuck over the years.

I have the LP Total Eclipse with the 6 O'clock track yet I still think of it as Supertime for some reason when I hear it.

 

Checkerboard Squares, I still use the title "Strings A Go Go"!  

[45cellar]

Yes Pete, same here.

 

Strings A Go Go.

[Back Street Blue]

phantom janitor.jpg

HERE HE IS "THE PHANTOM JANITOR"

 

I resemble him more now than I do any of the kids in the bogs 

[Dave Thorley]

Brilliant Dave! Thank goodness he had a sense of humour- Im telling you Dave that if that had been someone like Betty Lavette she would be after blood. Ive interviewed a few of our so called Lesser known artists and some of them have not a very positive attitude about the industry, feeling ripped off, so any opportunity to them is seen as worthwhile. I love your record hunting stories and the scary ones as well. It must have been a surprise for the Spaceark member to contact you. Did you discuss "Do what you can do"

ATB Steve

 

 

No need another member of the group came on here and discussed the group in general

[Cunnie]

  I hope one day some smart alec lawyer has a bee in his bonnet and decides to report a cover up to the trading standards under Misrepresentation- Then if a precedent is set we will see how many more are then covered up  What a silly comment was made about protecting playlists and that some Djs go to venues just to add to their playlist- Hey Mister Cover-up man - how did you hear lots of records?  Venues was it? Next you will be saying you cover up to protect your playlist from internet listening!  

Kinda with you on this.

Construction - Hey Little Way Out Girl released legally (supposedly) in the UK on Grapevine, a subsidiary of RCA as Del Capris.

So who got the royalties, Construction, Del Capris or no one.

Be interesting if the original group or even the fictional artist came forwards & wanted paying.

Smart alec lawyer could fill his boots.

[Phild]

Don't tell me,you've got a wdj tucked away. .Didn't know that Richard.

 

I have a white label test press of it. But credited to Ram-Brock not Clissac

[Premium Stuff]

I have a white label test press of it. But credited to Ram-Brock not Clissac

 

Like this one! 

 

Richard

 

Click on picture to see larger image

Edited June 8, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[Phild]

Like this one! 

 

Richard

 

Click on picture to see larger image

 

Very similar. I'll post mine up later

[Ian Dewhirst]

Kinda with you on this.

Construction - Hey Little Way Out Girl released legally (supposedly) in the UK on Grapevine, a subsidiary of RCA as Del Capris.

So who got the royalties, Construction, Del Capris or no one.

Be interesting if the original group or even the fictional artist came forwards & wanted paying.

Smart alec lawyer could fill his boots.

 

That's a very good point Martin. Technically it's known as 'passing off' but let's say you're the Del Capris who sang "Hey Little Girl" and suddenly you're confronted with a legitimate release that credits you as the artist on a different song by a different group, then that would probably be a real pisser. That was probably Richard being cute with the cover-up name because of the similarity in the titles.

 

Plus think about the poor buggers in the Construction too. They make one record and by a fluke of fate it goes big in the UK and then they find that they're gonna be known as Del Capris in future!

 

In fact, even Discogs has 'em both listed as the same act which kinda underlines my point:-

 

https://www.discogs.com/artist/Del+Capris,+The#t=Releases_Singles-EPs&q=&p=1

 

Bah! Talk about confusing. Who has the bloody time to spend unravelling this stuff.....?

 

Ian D

[Mick Holdsworth]

Kinda with you on this.

Construction - Hey Little Way Out Girl released legally (supposedly) in the UK on Grapevine, a subsidiary of RCA as Del Capris.

So who got the royalties, Construction, Del Capris or no one.

Be interesting if the original group or even the fictional artist came forwards & wanted paying.

Smart alec lawyer could fill his boots.

 

There was also Diane Renay "Can't Help Lovin That Man" being released as Laura Greene, also on Graprvine about the same time.

[Peter99]

  That's a very good point Martin. Technically it's known as 'passing off' but let's say you're the Del Capris who sang "Hey Little Girl" and suddenly you're confronted with a legitimate release that credits you as the artist on a different song by a different group, then that would probably be a real pisser. That was probably Richard being cute with the cover-up name because of the similarity in the titles.

 

Plus think about the poor buggers in the Construction too. They make one record and by a fluke of fate it goes big in the UK and then they find that they're gonna be known as Del Capris in future!

 

In fact, even Discogs has 'em both listed as the same act which kinda underlines my point:-

 

https://www.discogs.com/artist/Del+Capris,+The#t=Releases_Singles-EPs&q=&p=1

 

Bah! Talk about confusing. Who has the bloody time to spend unravelling this stuff.....?

 

Ian D

 

 

  :hypo:      

 

Peter

[Ian Dewhirst]

There was also Diane Renay "Can't Help Lovin That Man" being released as Laura Greene, also on Graprvine about the same time.

 

I wasn't around much when the Diane Renay version got played on the scene, so when Grapevine brought out the Laura Greene I thought that was the original version and Diane Renay was the cover-up name!

 

So that's two mis-credited artists on legal releases due to cover-ups then. Any more out of interest?

 

Ian D

Edited June 9, 2013 by Ian Dewhirst

[Chalky]

Brilliant Dave! Thank goodness he had a sense of humour- Im telling you Dave that if that had been someone like Betty Lavette she would be after blood. Ive interviewed a few of our so called Lesser known artists and some of them have not a very positive attitude about the industry, feeling ripped off, so any opportunity to them is seen as worthwhile. I love your record hunting stories and the scary ones as well. It must have been a surprise for the Spaceark member to contact you. Did you discuss "Do what you can do"

ATB Steve

 

 

And just what would Betty LaVette do about a DJ covering her record up if that ever was to happen?  

[Ian Dewhirst]

And just what would Betty LaVette do about a DJ covering her record up if that ever was to happen?  

 

Well, you wouldn't want Betty in your face saying, "Oh thanks a million pal. I spend my entire life recording soulful masterpieces and you have the cheek to cover up my name and give the credit to someone who doesn't even exist???? Plus I don't get my correct PRS income either! Call yourself a soul fan????"

 

Ian D

Edited June 10, 2013 by Ian Dewhirst

[Chalky]

Well, you wouldn't want Betty in your face saying, "Oh thanks a million pal. I spend my entire life recording soulful masterpieces and you have the cheek to cover up my name and give the credit to someone who doesn't even exist???? Plus I don't get my correct PRS income either! Call yourself a soul fan????"

 

Ian D

 

 

Most venues pay their license for entertainment as far as I am aware Ian but that is between the venue and the authorities.  As for ripping the artist off a DJ isn't depriving them of any record sales income, they were paid what they agreed at the time.  

 

We're talking 40 year old second hand records!!  As Dave said some really do need to lighten up a bit here.  As for Betty, she has probably had more exposure because of the UK soul scene.  Most of the artists receive little or no recognition for what they did back in the US.  I know many artists who are more than grateful what UK Dj's and promoters have done for them.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Most venues pay their license for entertainment as far as I am aware Ian but that is between the venue and the authorities.  As for ripping the artist off a DJ isn't depriving them of any record sales income, they were paid what they agreed at the time.  

 

We're talking 40 year old second hand records!!  As Dave said some really do need to lighten up a bit here.  As for Betty, she has probably had more exposure because of the UK soul scene.  Most of the artists receive little or no recognition for what they did back in the US.  I know many artists who are more than grateful what UK Dj's and promoters have done for them.

 

I said it with a smile Chalky. I'm only suggesting what the reaction might be, that's all. If someone put a different name on something that I'd gone to pains to produce I personally wouldn't be very happy. Just saying. 

 

Ian D