Counterfiet 45s

[Guest CliftonHall1]

Mmmm. Food for thought there Alan. Lemme get on a plane and start visiting those Music Bizzy retirement type complexes in Santa Anna and California!

Ian D

Iill set you off with a few possible hits from the Billboard year book you gave me........

[Winsford Soul]

Absolutely agree with that Rod, I found 20 stone mint copies about 15 years back, and I'm sure they're all still close to mint neatly filed away in collections, as mine is.

I stand corrected then chaps. The ones i had seen beforehand in bad nick must have been the exception rather than the rule. Wrong again

Steve

[KevH]

Absolutely agree with that Rod, I found 20 stone mint copies about 15 years back, and I'm sure they're all still close to mint neatly filed away in collections, as mine is.

but Cliff,that would only make you 6 when you found 'em surely?.

On a serious note seem to remember one coming up on Ebuy,maybe a year ago with very tentative bids on it.Can't remember the outcome tho'.

[michael-j]

I think it'd be twice as hard to boot UK rarities. There were both less promos and issues made for the UK than the US in most cases and I think it would be easier to check the actual pressings as the rarities would only usually come from a single UK pressing plant in those days, rather then several different plants like in the US.

also it's much harder to get records pressed now with a push-out centre, or with the non-slip ridges around the label. although someone might have just managed it, since there have been a few bootleg Beatles demos up recently on Ebay. obviously instantly identifiable from the modern printing and fonts, but people have still been getting three figure sums for them. either that, or they've stuck demo labels on issue copies.

e.g.

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-BEATLES-LADY-MA...1QQcmdZViewItem

[Guest]

Dont want to get myself in bother here as the person said UK dealers.

The question I want answering is by John Manship himself is "How can he drop the value of the the FHIII record from £1000 to £200 in 2 price guides when hardly any originals have turned up. If your reading this John could you please explain it for us- many thanks in anticipation

To answer your question:

I sold one of the very first originals of Frederick Hymes at Soul Essence for well over £1000 in trades to a famous collector / DJ.

A while later the two Las Vagas dealers then turned it up quantity. To date the 1st. copy of Frederick Hymes has never come back to me to compare with others copies I've had since.

Correct me if I'm wrong but can anyone show me two different presses of Frederick Hymes? then I'll agree they are counterfeits. As yet I've not seen two different copies at the same time.

My understanding from Richie Rossen & Giatino, they contacted the label owner and bought the quanity left that he still had.

At this moment in time I've seen no evidence that one is a counterfeit but to be honest I've not looked out for it. I'd need the original first copy back to compare.

As for counterfeiting. This has been going on for decaes and decades BUT the materials used in the making of a 60s record are no longer made IE the paper technology has moved on so far you would have to source genuine 60s paper but much harder you have to match from all the many of different vinyl types there are a huge amount of them. Then match the thickness, weight, flexibility and then try and source dyes that have long since been banned in the USA because they are cancer causing. Like coping antiques, experts will spot the "dodgy" one in most cases.

There are a huge amount of counterfeits on the market from the 70s, when it was been easier to source the necessary materials. You can easily spot them, because the vimnyl doesn't match up, as for Matrix stamps I think that is the easier part of the counterfeiting prossess. IE Check out the Phoney "Bell Sound" on Voices of East Harlem.

I consider it would be near impossible to get all the detail required to pass off originals as counterfeit. As long as you have the original to compare it with.

As you seeing MINT copies and presuming they are counterfeit is extremely niave to say the least. We get MINT unplayed records everyday of the week through the mail.

If anyone has TWO different presses of Frederick Hymes please could you let me have the details..meanwhile I'll be asking Richie R. what he thinks...

PS many label owner I've met do have, labels and the masterplastes.. but even then repressing never is exactly the same, as for the reasons mentioned above.

70s counterfeits are "rife" so do be careful to check out which have been "replicated"

John

[Pauldonnelly]

To answer your question:

I sold one of the very first originals of Frederick Hymes at Soul Essence for well over £1000 in trades to a famous collector / DJ.

A while later the two Las Vagas dealers then turned it up quantity. To date the 1st. copy of Frederick Hymes has never come back to me to compare with others copies I've had since.

Correct me if I'm wrong but can anyone show me two different presses of Frederick Hymes? then I'll agree they are counterfeits. As yet I've not seen two different copies at the same time.

My understanding from Richie Rossen & Giatino, they contacted the label owner and bought the quanity left that he still had.

At this moment in time I've seen no evidence that one is a counterfeit but to be honest I've not looked out for it. I'd need the original first copy back to compare.

As for counterfeiting. This has been going on for decaes and decades BUT the materials used in the making of a 60s record are no longer made IE the paper technology has moved on so far you would have to source genuine 60s paper but much harder you have to match from all the many of different vinyl types there are a huge amount of them. Then match the thickness, weight, flexibility and then try and source dyes that have long since been banned in the USA because they are cancer causing. Like coping antiques, experts will spot the "dodgy" one in most cases.

There are a huge amount of counterfeits on the market from the 70s, when it was been easier to source the necessary materials. You can easily spot them, because the vimnyl doesn't match up, as for Matrix stamps I think that is the easier part of the counterfeiting prossess. IE Check out the Phoney "Bell Sound" on Voices of East Harlem.

I consider it would be near impossible to get all the detail required to pass off originals as counterfeit. As long as you have the original to compare it with.

As you seeing MINT copies and presuming they are counterfeit is extremely niave to say the least. We get MINT unplayed records everyday of the week through the mail.

If anyone has TWO different presses of Frederick Hymes please could you let me have the details..meanwhile I'll be asking Richie R. what he thinks...

PS many label owner I've met do have, labels and the masterplastes.. but even then repressing never is exactly the same, as for the reasons mentioned above.

70s counterfeits are "rife" so do be careful to check out which have been "replicated"

John

thanks John, as precise as ever.

[cloth ears]

Just going right back to start of this thread to make an observation that someone may well shoot down in flames . . . . . . . . But, we (should I say I) don't tend to see UK rarity bootlegs. Is it that most are insufficiently rare (!!?? can feel the collectors steaming now), harder to boot, more focussed legal protection? Could the future for collectors be more in Uk rarity market. I suppose there's no stopping the criminal abuse of rarity and price. I still think the odd thing about our 'scene' is the destruction by those who claim to be part of it by producing fakes for the hungry market.

Think I'll just keep buying cheap records! Dean

the point is beeing missed!!!!!!! i dont think it would be people on the scene , i would be someone who sees the price some records achieve and can do it ! its a huge profit for relatively small outlays. plus YOU WONT GET CAUGHT...............WHY BECAUSE WE DONT KNOW DO WE.....THE RECORDS ARE COMPLETE REPLICAS!!!!!!!! uk 45s normally have a centre and in a lot of cases were almost cut through so they could be removed for juke box use......they cant do this now those machines have long gone i believe!!!

[Pete S]

John - apparently the second press of Frederick Hymes is on thinner vinyl and you're going to think I'm sh*tting you now but SOMEONE I know had the two copies tested using state of the art equipment at his place of work (where they use this process) and the one copy (Soiul Sam's original play copy) was dated to approx 35 years old, the second, a recent buy, to approx 5 years old.

[hrtshpdbox]

With the ever increasing amount of information at hand, like this site, price guides, etc. people are more aware of what they have and what its worth. Most of us USA folks have little knowledge and no participation in the scene, so have no local knowledge of values.

More and more Americans "know about" Northern Soul, and I mean specifically they know they can sell these records to overseas collectors. I was at an auction on Saturday (here in Pennsylvania), and the advert had pictured a stack of several hundred 45s. By the time I got there, an hour before the auction was to begin, the place was crawling with people who were pawing the records (and even moving them around from box to box, and marking the boxes they wanted). I think a lot of these people are retirees who've finally figured out that records aren't quite the yesterday's-news that they'd thought. There was plenty of soul, too, and that's what this crowd was excited about, but I figured I was not going to be getting bargains that day, so I left before the fireworks began.

[hrtshpdbox]

The Royal Esquires turned up because someone found the label owner who had all the copies in his garage. It has not been bootleged. The owner has subsequently died.

I don't know about this specific case, of course, but I do think that the appearance of collections of those who owned or worked for, or were related to owners or employees of, labels and pressing plants is not that uncommon. That is probably happening a lot more than people coming upon boarded-up record stores. The idea of ten copies showing up, in this manner, of a heretofore utter rarity seems much more likely than a high-quality counterfeit being produced.

[boba]

To answer your question:

I sold one of the very first originals of Frederick Hymes at Soul Essence for well over £1000 in trades to a famous collector / DJ.

A while later the two Las Vagas dealers then turned it up quantity. To date the 1st. copy of Frederick Hymes has never come back to me to compare with others copies I've had since.

Correct me if I'm wrong but can anyone show me two different presses of Frederick Hymes? then I'll agree they are counterfeits. As yet I've not seen two different copies at the same time.

My understanding from Richie Rossen & Giatino, they contacted the label owner and bought the quanity left that he still had.

At this moment in time I've seen no evidence that one is a counterfeit but to be honest I've not looked out for it. I'd need the original first copy back to compare.

As for counterfeiting. This has been going on for decaes and decades BUT the materials used in the making of a 60s record are no longer made IE the paper technology has moved on so far you would have to source genuine 60s paper but much harder you have to match from all the many of different vinyl types there are a huge amount of them. Then match the thickness, weight, flexibility and then try and source dyes that have long since been banned in the USA because they are cancer causing. Like coping antiques, experts will spot the "dodgy" one in most cases.

There are a huge amount of counterfeits on the market from the 70s, when it was been easier to source the necessary materials. You can easily spot them, because the vimnyl doesn't match up, as for Matrix stamps I think that is the easier part of the counterfeiting prossess. IE Check out the Phoney "Bell Sound" on Voices of East Harlem.

I consider it would be near impossible to get all the detail required to pass off originals as counterfeit. As long as you have the original to compare it with.

As you seeing MINT copies and presuming they are counterfeit is extremely niave to say the least. We get MINT unplayed records everyday of the week through the mail.

If anyone has TWO different presses of Frederick Hymes please could you let me have the details..meanwhile I'll be asking Richie R. what he thinks...

PS many label owner I've met do have, labels and the masterplastes.. but even then repressing never is exactly the same, as for the reasons mentioned above.

70s counterfeits are "rife" so do be careful to check out which have been "replicated"

John

I also never thought the frederick hymes were counterfeits. more evidence (obviously not proof of anything, just evidence) is that many of the newer copies on the market were warped. I don't think they did this intentionally, I got one, it looks like a storage warp.

Even if there is a difference between certain 'old' copies and the ones that are on the market now, that STILL wouldn't prove it is a counterfeit because many records back in the day had 1st and 2nd runs with slight differences, even extremely rare records -- for example, maybe 500 pressed and sold out, then they pressed another 500, and most of the second run sat unsold with the owner.

I am NOT saying that the new copies are not counterfeits necessary, I'm just saying I'm not convinced and am interested in hearing evidence otherwise -- e.g. what the specific differences are. Pete S said something about somehow 'dating' the vinyl -- if that's possible, I guess that would be valid evidence too, although I would want to see how it was actually done and see the results myself.

I do think it's funny that anytime quantity comes up people decide it's a counterfeit because it just drives the value down even more to make it accessible to people like me who aren't going to shell out 4 figures for an original copy of a record.

[Guest]

I believe it's entirely possible that there are more original copies of most rare 45s out there, as part of more general record collectons. I would say it's impossible to account for every copy of any 45 and it's very likely that there are people out there sitting on records that do not know their worth.

It's undoubtedly very easy to press vinyl these days, but I would think that, if it happens, the fakes would be easy to tell apart from the originals. The problem is though, most of us wouldn't already have the original to compare it to and therefore would be none the wiser. So yes, I can see that potentially there could be an issue, but as was mentioned earlier, I don't think there is sufficient volume involved for it to be worthwhile for anyone to try, nevermind the level of expertise they would need to fool most serious collectors.

On a related point though, I have been considering getting a copy of the Shorty Long track "Baby Come Home to Me" pressed on a one-off white label 7" as it's only available on an album. This is purely from a practical point of view because a 12" record obviously doesn't fit in a 45 box and it would mean one less thing to carry to gigs. Is this wrong? Or even legal?

[Steve G]

Frederick Hymes 1st issue is a murkier and darker yellow much flatter in colour, and the vinyl is different. I have seen them both together at Cleethorpes (though haven't dated them like Pete!!!).

Not sure if the 2nd issue is a counterfeit or just a legit re-issue from the singer or label owner......

I agree stone mint records still do turn up - they've not all been subjected to years of DJ cueing abuse

[soulsalmon]

With all due respect this is tosh. Mine's Mint and Im sure there's a couple more round here within 10 minutes walk, albeit maybe not Mint.

Unless you are certain those at Sheridan's were boots I think it's highly likely that 2 can turn up on the same night. Some of these rare 45s are not that rare. It's just the demand and number of people who collect so that most disappear into collections.

ROD

Well said Mr Shard

[Ernie Andrews]

To answer your question:

I sold one of the very first originals of Frederick Hymes at Soul Essence for well over £1000 in trades to a famous collector / DJ.

A while later the two Las Vagas dealers then turned it up quantity. To date the 1st. copy of Frederick Hymes has never come back to me to compare with others copies I've had since.

Correct me if I'm wrong but can anyone show me two different presses of Frederick Hymes? then I'll agree they are counterfeits. As yet I've not seen two different copies at the same time.

My understanding from Richie Rossen & Giatino, they contacted the label owner and bought the quanity left that he still had.

At this moment in time I've seen no evidence that one is a counterfeit but to be honest I've not looked out for it. I'd need the original first copy back to compare.

As for counterfeiting. This has been going on for decaes and decades BUT the materials used in the making of a 60s record are no longer made IE the paper technology has moved on so far you would have to source genuine 60s paper but much harder you have to match from all the many of different vinyl types there are a huge amount of them. Then match the thickness, weight, flexibility and then try and source dyes that have long since been banned in the USA because they are cancer causing. Like coping antiques, experts will spot the "dodgy" one in most cases.

There are a huge amount of counterfeits on the market from the 70s, when it was been easier to source the necessary materials. You can easily spot them, because the vimnyl doesn't match up, as for Matrix stamps I think that is the easier part of the counterfeiting prossess. IE Check out the Phoney "Bell Sound" on Voices of East Harlem.

I consider it would be near impossible to get all the detail required to pass off originals as counterfeit. As long as you have the original to compare it with.

As you seeing MINT copies and presuming they are counterfeit is extremely niave to say the least. We get MINT unplayed records everyday of the week through the mail.

If anyone has TWO different presses of Frederick Hymes please could you let me have the details..meanwhile I'll be asking Richie R. what he thinks...

PS many label owner I've met do have, labels and the masterplastes.. but even then repressing never is exactly the same, as for the reasons mentioned above.

70s counterfeits are "rife" so do be careful to check out which have been "replicated"

John

John If you sold it to Sam - I have it and will let you have it to compare.

PS When I bought it Sam said he bought it from you for not far off 4 figures.

If thats correct pm me and I will send it down to you..

If you want an independant view ask John Weston of Birmingham (spagetti weston on here) as he has an original and was with me when we were at the RItz in Mcr some year ago and we looked at all the cpies for sale and you could see through them and also they cut your hands as the edges were so sharp.

So if these are all forgeries that have flooded in will you be re-evaluating the price of the origianl of this record back to your vol 2 price?

Please answer

Regards Steve

P.S John Weston was with me when I bought the one off Sam

Edited April 14, 2008 by Ernie Andrews

[Ian Dewhirst]

Iill set you off with a few possible hits from the Billboard year book you gave me........

GAVE you Alan?

I'm from Mirfield - we don't give anything away mate!

I'm terribly sorry that you misconstrued the contract we had re the billboard book old bean. My recollection of the deal was that it was strictly available for hire at the (then) bargain price of a mere £2 per week.

Since that was, errr, 1978, that equates to £104 per year x 30 years = £3,120.00 which is payable immediately.

I would be most grateful if you get that off today please.

A pleasure doing business with you sir.

Yours Sincerely,

Ian D

[Guest gordon russell]

Wow. I stand corrected Gentlemen. Obviously a lot more around then I ever realised!

All of which has made me wonder if multiples of any other ultra-raries have turned up since back in the day. Any Inspirations, Twans, Don Varners or Robbie Lawsons turned up in more quantity for instance?

Actually in my astonishment at the two Jimmy Macks in one night in Ravensthorpe turning up, I remembered a guy called Jim who WAS 10 minutes away (in Mirfield) who had an amazing collection of rare originals in '76. Myself and others sold him our rare originals for years when they got bootlegged and he'd built up a very tasty collection, but he dropped off the scene for some reason. I always wondered whether he's still around and whether they're still in his loft........?

Ian D

dunno about that ,just get round his house and hope he don't know shit ho ho these days

[Guest]

talking with dave rimmer last night i mentioned this thought that ive had for a while now , so lets see what you think!!!!

If the counterfieters can copy top of the range items like rolex watches and louis vutton hand bags almost to the point that even they have trouble telling them apart, what about records?

we all know pressings and look a likes dont cost very much at all to produce say 50p each for this excercise .

so if you offered them $1000. each for 10 copies of the parliaments on cabell as long as they were indistinguishable from the original how would we know? someone must be at it, the amount of money to be made tells you that.

ponder that!!!!!

No way baby ! People on the Soul scene are way to lovley to do that ! Now gimme another E !

[boba]

Frederick Hymes 1st issue is a murkier and darker yellow much flatter in colour, and the vinyl is different. I have seen them both together at Cleethorpes (though haven't dated them like Pete!!!).

Not sure if the 2nd issue is a counterfeit or just a legit re-issue from the singer or label owner......

I agree stone mint records still do turn up - they've not all been subjected to years of DJ cueing abuse

My friend tracked down the label owners of a rare chicago modern record after I found a beat up copy. He got about 10 copies from the label owner. The thing was, the copies he got were thinner and slightly lighter colored labels than the copy I found. The guy definitely did not press up 10 copies to sell to my friend. Somehow there must have been two runs of the original 45 or somehow (even less likely) the 45s 'changed' however he stored the copies. Also, it's always suprising how there are alternate takes of some of the absolute rarest 45s (e.g. younger brothers), meaning that there was more than one run.

I'm still not saying that the frederick hymes was not counterfeited (and I know there are shady people associated with it), I'm just saying that even if it's different, it's not necessarily not an original press. It's very difficult to know, sometimes people will even repress record with the same plates or even the same labels left over from the original run.

[Guest]

On a related point though, I have been considering getting a copy of the Shorty Long track "Baby Come Home to Me" pressed on a one-off white label 7" as it's only available on an album. This is purely from a practical point of view because a 12" record obviously doesn't fit in a 45 box and it would mean one less thing to carry to gigs. Is this wrong? Or even legal?

No thats not allowed ! Buy yourself a 33 rpm box and dig up a few original lps ! You might even like them in the end!

(original lp track only means just that )

And makes for an intresting set IMO

Edited April 14, 2008 by mossy

[Guest]

No thats not allowed ! Buy yourself a 33 rpm box and dig up a few original lps ! You might even like them in the end!

(original lp track only means just that )

And makes for an intresting set IMO

Ha ha, I did feel guilty for even thinking about it! Albums are not only (usually) cheaper but you get more tracks too, suits a skinflint like me down to the ground

[Guest]

John If you sold it to Sam - I have it and will let you have it to compare.

PS When I bought it Sam said he bought it from you for not far off 4 figures.

If thats correct pm me and I will send it down to you..

If you want an independant view ask John Weston of Birmingham (spagetti weston on here) as he has an original and was with me when we were at the RItz in Mcr some year ago and we looked at all the cpies for sale and you could see through them and also they cut your hands as the edges were so sharp.

So if these are all forgeries that have flooded in will you be re-evaluating the price of the origianl of this record back to your vol 2 price?

Please answer

Regards Steve

P.S John Weston was with me when I bought the one off Sam

Steve,

I thought it was Arthur Fenn who I sold it to.. I'll ask Sam when I see him next week if it was him... easy to confuse the two, both old, bald and sharks to deal with.

I'm out of stock of the Frederick Hymes at the moment. But as soon as I get a copy, I'll PM you so we can compare.

The Vegas two for the last decade and more have concentrated their time to tracking label owners, and other "finds" have been genuine ie Royal Esquires etc.

Whether the owner repressed or they themselves repressed or all the copies are genuine @ this moment in time, is conjecture.

I do talk to Richie Rosen a lot and he is a friend so I'll ask him this week what the story is, and I will course, now check carefully & document every copy of FRederick Hymes I get.

John

[Steve G]

My friend tracked down the label owners of a rare chicago modern record after I found a beat up copy. He got about 10 copies from the label owner. The thing was, the copies he got were thinner and slightly lighter colored labels than the copy I found. The guy definitely did not press up 10 copies to sell to my friend. Somehow there must have been two runs of the original 45 or somehow (even less likely) the 45s 'changed' however he stored the copies. Also, it's always suprising how there are alternate takes of some of the absolute rarest 45s (e.g. younger brothers), meaning that there was more than one run.

I'm still not saying that the frederick hymes was not counterfeited (and I know there are shady people associated with it), I'm just saying that even if it's different, it's not necessarily not an original press. It's very difficult to know, sometimes people will even repress record with the same plates or even the same labels left over from the original run.

Hey Bob when I was down in LV I was asked everywhere I went if I "needed a Frederick Hymes" - got the impression there was a box full under the counter but this too is conjecture and there may have only been a few "especially for the Brits". I have not said categorically it was counterfeited (though it might be), more that it is a second issue (I assume with the label owner or artists permission) but who knows and I certainly wouldn't be asking the guys down there to tell me. Pete's dating thing is interesting, and that tends to point to a recent issue.

There are plenty of better records to collect without the "uncertainty" around this one.

Steve

[Guest SteveJohnston]

GAVE you Alan?

I'm from Mirfield - we don't give anything away mate!

I'm terribly sorry that you misconstrued the contract we had re the billboard book old bean. My recollection of the deal was that it was strictly available for hire at the (then) bargain price of a mere £2 per week.

Since that was, errr, 1978, that equates to £104 per year x 30 years = £3,120.00 which is payable immediately.

I would be most grateful if you get that off today please.

A pleasure doing business with you sir.

Yours Sincerely,

Ian D

A pleasure ...............from Mirfield is that in yorkshire ? .............."never give anything away" made me think it was

Steve J

Edited April 15, 2008 by SteveJohnston

[Dean]

Just going right back to start of this thread to make an observation that someone may well shoot down in flames . . . . . . . . But, we (should I say I) don't tend to see UK rarity bootlegs. Is it that most are insufficiently rare (!!?? can feel the collectors steaming now), harder to boot, more focussed legal protection? Could the future for collectors be more in Uk rarity market. I suppose there's no stopping the criminal abuse of rarity and price. I still think the odd thing about our 'scene' is the destruction by those who claim to be part of it by producing fakes for the hungry market.

Think I'll just keep buying cheap records! Dean

the point is beeing missed!!!!!!! i dont think it would be people on the scene , i would be someone who sees the price some records achieve and can do it ! its a huge profit for relatively small outlays. plus YOU WONT GET CAUGHT...............WHY BECAUSE WE DONT KNOW DO WE.....THE RECORDS ARE COMPLETE REPLICAS!!!!!!!! uk 45s normally have a centre and in a lot of cases were almost cut through so they could be removed for juke box use......they cant do this now those machines have long gone i believe!!!

I'm getting the idea why you're referred to as Cloth Ears . I was making an observation, that's observation, that it may be more difficult to counterfeit UK records, hence some safety for collectors within that market. I'd hoped to be contributing to the point, if I was missing it then I still am. I was agreeing in the difficulty if not impossibility of stopping criminal abuse relating to rarity and price. The "odd thing" comment is me missing your point but elaborating and making my own, connecting your comments to what I don't like, those part of the scene and abusing through greed. That's just my opinion. I wasn't intending to insinuate that serious criminal replication would be done by small time bootleggers on the scene. I hope you get your keyboard fixed, that exclamation mark is being a nuisance isn't it, or perhaps some therapy . . . . . . . . . . and breathe out. And best wishes.

[Mark Bicknell]

I think this is all down to and something JM touched on here is that 'knowledge is power' knowing your subject and if unsure alway's try to get a second opinion before you part with your cash if you are uncertain about a records authenticity, if you have been around records as long as most of us have then it's like a built in six sense when something is iffy or not quite right, again experence and knowledge of the subject is key, now I'm not for one minute suggesting that we all know it all but as it's already been said there are certain things to look out for and in most cases an authentic example is out there to compare to, a prime example that springs to mind is 'John And The Weirdest' a few years ago when one or two people who perhaps should have known their subject better got dupped with a conterfiet, not sure of the circumstances on this one but I believe that the error was missed until a third party told them otherwise that the copies were fake, again 'knowledge is power' of course there are other examples regarding people being dupped with counterfiet records and I'm sure it will happen again in the future, I'm just glad the likes of JM and others will alway's offer advice and their opinion on a record's authenticity and it might well be wise to alway's get a second opinion if you are unsure no matter how much we think we know.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Edited April 15, 2008 by Mark Bicknell

[funkyfeet]

For about the 50th time:

The Royal Esquires turned up because someone found the label owner who had all the copies in his garage. It has not been bootleged. The owner has subsequently died.

Things like that happen in this biz, people find records.

Having said all that, I understand it can be done, but I am still waiting to hear of an example where people think this has happened?

Agreed the Royal Esquires is real I've had more than most people, I've have had boxes of 25's and the sleeves they are in are old discoloured one's and all the same, I also had multiples of everything else on the label from same source, most wouldn't have been worth booting, they all came from the label owner as previously said. I've said numerous time the USA is one large country, and they (The Records) are still out there, ebay has opened their eyes to the $'s they can make so they're going through those boxes they've had stashed for years at the back of their stock holdings, when before the couldn't be arsed. Mark (netspeaky) @ Funkyfeet.

The Frederick Hymes was never commercially available, Frederick sold it at his live gigs only, so it could well be a legit re-press when he ran out.

Edited April 15, 2008 by funkyfeet

[Steve Plumb]

Pete's dating thing is interesting, and that tends to point to a recent issue.

I have a mate who's a Doctor of Chemistry and I asked him ages ago this very question i.e. Is it possible to date the vinyl/styrene of old/new 45's. He said he thought it may be possible BUT as far as he knew it would mean the near destruction of said 45's! At the very least a lump of each 45 would be needed for testing and simply drilling the 45 (like a deletion for example) would heat up and trash the plastic so at the very least a biggish hole would need to be cut out of the label for use in the various aging processes!

Pete's dating thing is very interesting! If it can be done like for example by putting chemicals on the run out groove or summat, that'd be like gold dust! Problem is vinyl & styrene are completely different animals!

On a lighter note, if it could be done, it'd be like a pregnancy testing kit for old vinyl/styrene

We should start a competition for marketing names of a kit like this....any ideas?

One for starters would be the 'HYMElich manoeuvre'....................or just 'The Frederick' for short................i'll get me coat

Cheers

Steve

[kathdj]

Maybe it's more profitable to fake a couple of hundred cheapies and drip feed them onto eBay than try a fool people who would be buying 'rarities'.

There have been a couple of tunes recently that I have looked for and suddenly there are half a dozen 'too good to be true?' copies. Clearly others feel the same as some which ought to have been popular got no offers.

[Guest CliftonHall1]

GAVE you Alan?

I'm from Mirfield - we don't give anything away mate!

I'm terribly sorry that you misconstrued the contract we had re the billboard book old bean. My recollection of the deal was that it was strictly available for hire at the (then) bargain price of a mere £2 per week.

Since that was, errr, 1978, that equates to £104 per year x 30 years = £3,120.00 which is payable immediately.

I would be most grateful if you get that off today please.

A pleasure doing business with you sir.

Yours Sincerely,

Ian D

Ian, errr, errrrr, uhm, uhmmm,

i was going to let you have it back mate, errrrm, HONEST!

its just that i've thumbed most of the ink of long ago and i wanted to get rid of a few of the stains and reopen the pages that were stuck together at Beavers and Jewell Smith.

I told my mum at the time it was being up all night phoning the states but she said it was more like body fluids expelled through watching Debbie Does Dallas.

Dont send the boys around as soon as i can get the pages unstuck i'll bob it round. LOL

ALAN S

[Guest CliftonHall1]

To answer your question:

I sold one of the very first originals of Frederick Hymes at Soul Essence for well over £1000 in trades to a famous collector / DJ.

A while later the two Las Vagas dealers then turned it up quantity. To date the 1st. copy of Frederick Hymes has never come back to me to compare with others copies I've had since.

Correct me if I'm wrong but can anyone show me two different presses of Frederick Hymes? then I'll agree they are counterfeits. As yet I've not seen two different copies at the same time.

My understanding from Richie Rossen & Giatino, they contacted the label owner and bought the quanity left that he still had.

At this moment in time I've seen no evidence that one is a counterfeit but to be honest I've not looked out for it. I'd need the original first copy back to compare.

As for counterfeiting. This has been going on for decaes and decades BUT the materials used in the making of a 60s record are no longer made IE the paper technology has moved on so far you would have to source genuine 60s paper but much harder you have to match from all the many of different vinyl types there are a huge amount of them. Then match the thickness, weight, flexibility and then try and source dyes that have long since been banned in the USA because they are cancer causing. Like coping antiques, experts will spot the "dodgy" one in most cases.

There are a huge amount of counterfeits on the market from the 70s, when it was been easier to source the necessary materials. You can easily spot them, because the vimnyl doesn't match up, as for Matrix stamps I think that is the easier part of the counterfeiting prossess. IE Check out the Phoney "Bell Sound" on Voices of East Harlem.

I consider it would be near impossible to get all the detail required to pass off originals as counterfeit. As long as you have the original to compare it with.

As you seeing MINT copies and presuming they are counterfeit is extremely niave to say the least. We get MINT unplayed records everyday of the week through the mail.

If anyone has TWO different presses of Frederick Hymes please could you let me have the details..meanwhile I'll be asking Richie R. what he thinks...

PS many label owner I've met do have, labels and the masterplastes.. but even then repressing never is exactly the same, as for the reasons mentioned above.

70s counterfeits are "rife" so do be careful to check out which have been "replicated"

John

John,

Richie was round at my place a couple of years ago along with Gary Cape and never mentioned the record which i would think if he had booted the record he would have leaned on me to take some. Particulary as he was on his way to see John in Kings Lynn so was carrying stock.

A few things people need to take on board re credibility of records is that the Plastic has advanced since 1965 and allthough a gentleman we all know (now deceased) from Miami used to buy old records to "chip" to make new gobs for presssing that was when the Vinyl was THERMO Plastic vinyl i.e can be remoulded under heat and pressure whereas todays vinyl is THERMOSETTING Plastic which means once pressed will not entertain remoulding.

I tend to prescribe to records surfacing through contact of label owners.

Many a record hound has had success with this route, of course.

Regards

ALAN

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ian, errr, errrrr, uhm, uhmmm,

i was going to let you have it back mate, errrrm, HONEST!

its just that i've thumbed most of the ink of long ago and i wanted to get rid of a few of the stains and reopen the pages that were stuck together at Beavers and Jewell Smith.

I told my mum at the time it was being up all night phoning the states but she said it was more like body fluids expelled through watching Debbie Does Dallas.

Dont send the boys around as soon as i can get the pages unstuck i'll bob it round. LOL

ALAN S

Oh dear. That's most unfortunate Mr Senior.

I believe the terms of the agreement expressly forbade any bodily fluids being expelled upon the U.S. wholesalers section and, as such, it will be necessary to invoke the rather punitive clause 32, section iii), namely, in the event of any bodily fluids being expelled onto the Wholesaler section the hirer shall be deemed liable and subject to a fine of £1000.

So, where are we now mate? It looks like £3,120 + £1,000 = £4,120.

Still got that Robbie Lawson knocking around?

Ian D

[Prophonics 2029]

I like to collect and if I see a copy of a record I have I tend to get another copy, a weird affliction I know but I do find that they are never the same, Never, they may look alike but they will sound different and then they can also look different, same matrix but different thikness plastic.

I bet this could be that at the pressing plant you have different makes of machine so they have different tolerances and if a stamper presses 500 you will need a few stampers to complete an order of say 5000

I wonder when records turn up in say 25 and 50ts and are warp is this because they have always been warped and that they were retuned to the manufacture??

Edited April 16, 2008 by Prophonics 2029

[Pete S]

I have a mate who's a Doctor of Chemistry and I asked him ages ago this very question i.e. Is it possible to date the vinyl/styrene of old/new 45's. He said he thought it may be possible BUT as far as he knew it would mean the near destruction of said 45's! At the very least a lump of each 45 would be needed for testing and simply drilling the 45 (like a deletion for example) would heat up and trash the plastic so at the very least a biggish hole would need to be cut out of the label for use in the various aging processes!

Pete's dating thing is very interesting! If it can be done like for example by putting chemicals on the run out groove or summat, that'd be like gold dust! Problem is vinyl & styrene are completely different animals!

On a lighter note, if it could be done, it'd be like a pregnancy testing kit for old vinyl/styrene

We should start a competition for marketing names of a kit like this....any ideas?

One for starters would be the 'HYMElich manoeuvre'....................or just 'The Frederick' for short................i'll get me coat

Cheers

Steve

Steve says it was done using hospital laser technology! The vinyl remains unharmed...

[Guest CliftonHall1]

Oh dear. That's most unfortunate Mr Senior.

I believe the terms of the agreement expressly forbade any bodily fluids being expelled upon the U.S. wholesalers section and, as such, it will be necessary to invoke the rather punitive clause 32, section iii), namely, in the event of any bodily fluids being expelled onto the Wholesaler section the hirer shall be deemed liable and subject to a fine of £1000.

So, where are we now mate? It looks like £3,120 + £1,000 = £4,120.

Still got that Robbie Lawson knocking around?

Ian D

Ian, gulp, errrrrmmm

CANT possibly part with Robbie, but if another Burning Sensation would satisfy.....perhaps Kyser Y gel it...would that remove my encumberance with my good lord and kind sir ???

[Steve Plumb]

Steve says it was done using hospital laser technology! The vinyl remains unharmed...

Thanks Pete - I presume you're being serious due to lack of smilies?

Can we get the NHS to fund our little project then

Failing that i'm off to get a quote on one of these babies - probably quarter of a million should bag one methinks!

Cheers

Steve

[CRUMB]

Thanks Pete - I presume you're being serious due to lack of smilies?

Can we get the NHS to fund our little project then

Failing that i'm off to get a quote on one of these babies - probably quarter of a million should bag one methinks!

Cheers

Steve

My sister in law who's a radiographer was asked to do some scanning for archeologists a few years ago. They probably had to pay a fortune for it, although one of the consultants did spend all her holidays on Time Team style digging so maybe not.

I'll ask her if she knows owt about this laser stuff, could always get her to do some scanning in her dinner hour

[Prophonics 2029]

I think you will find that there is a big difference in lasers and Radiography, one uses Gamma rays the other visible light rays.

[CRUMB]

I think you will find that there is a big difference in lasers and Radiography, one uses Gamma rays the other visible light rays.

Yes, but if they use hospital x-ray equipment for commercial purposed then I don't see why they wouldn't do the same with lasers.

[Chalky]

I disagree Rod.

As long as I've known, the Jimmy Mack's been an incredibly difficult record to find. To have 2 mint copies turn up @ Sheridans doesn't make sense. Unless someone can tell me different, or a load turned up, I'd be very dubious about the odds of several of 'em turning up on the same night....

Presumably it's still massively difficult?

Ian D

Quite believable if you ask me. Been in the same room as two copies of Bernadine - Fred & Turbines on Cenco, same room as 4 copies of Linda and Pretenders - Believe Me on Assault, both records far rarer than Jimmy Mack. Could think of other examples too.

[pikeys dog]

Quite believable if you ask me. Been in the same room as two copies of Bernadine - Fred & Turbines on Cenco, same room as 4 copies of Linda and Pretenders - Believe Me on Assault, both records far rarer than Jimmy Mack. Could think of other examples too.

Was looking after someones sales box at Prestatyn before last, and there was an Al Williams in there for sale..... there was also one not more that 12 foot away in another sales box...

[Chris Anderton]

I was told some ten years ago that the states were dry! look at the amount of big ticket records that are turning up on sales list auctions on a disturbingly regular basis

...........

what you need to undestand that despite the obvious disadvantages, the advent of Johns book and ebay have also brought out a lot of records from peoples collections etc plus there are now people in just about every US city actively looking for Northern soul records, thats why more records have come out in the last few years.

going to the States looking for records is completely different now to what it was ten years ago. Back then it was more like looking for hidden treasure. These days its more like negotiating a deal with US dealers who know as much (sometimes more) as you do!

Chris