on tonite

info and a preview  clip on the bbc page

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p023dc55

 

showing times

 

Fri 25 Jul 2014

21:30

BBC Four

 

Sat 26 Jul 2014

00:30

BBC Four

 

Mon 28 Jul 2014

00:00

BBC Four

Enjoy the programme and the forthcoming film for what they are but bear in mind it won't be safe to go to a soul night for a while once Joe Public decide 'I'll have some of that'

It'll be drinks and barging on the dancefloor with a few fights thrown in at the end of the night

Dedicated soul fans will have to return to the all-nighters for a good six months until the novelty wears off

Do you really believe that will happen? Not having a dig, but this attitude always surprises when soul hits the media in some format. It may put a few new faces out there out of curiosity, but a wild west style influx of town centre bell ends arsing around on the dance floor - it just doesn't happen.

Do you really believe that will happen? Not having a dig, but this attitude always surprises when soul hits the media in some format. It may put a few new faces out there out of curiosity, but a wild west style influx of town centre bell ends arsing around on the dance floor - it just doesn't happen.

 

I think it will be a bit of both - hopefully it will entice some younger people into the scene who genuinely appreciate the music but it will also attract some of the undesirables

A couple of comments,

 

Norman Jay went when the cameras were at Wigan-is this BECAUSE the cameras were at Wigan?

 

At least Mark Almond didn`t say he went(or at least I didn`t hear it,might be wrong?)

 

Lisa Stansfield???

 

We will always be hyper critical-because `tis cherished by us and nobody ever gets it right(for us).

 

Soz-that`s more than a couple-I can`t help myself(LOL)

I enjoyed it.

Thought Ian D's contribution was excellent.

Generally a very good programme, especially for those on the outside looking in.

Can't stand the 'grim up north' we all worked down t'pit' angle, not completely true is it?

I don't know anyone that worked down a pit & I got the train to Wigan every weekend along with dozens & dozens of my mates & people from Warrington.

Why do they always harp on about that angle, it's b@ll@cks & as stereotypical as the nostalgia scene.

Moan over, but don't get me wrong, really good & optimistic view if the scene going forward.

I was at the Ritz Dayers when all that Levine must go stuff was going on & it captured that time & the reasons well I thought.

So overall, pretty good job.

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by MrsWoodsrules

It was what I expected it to be have seen it all before, nice to see Colin Curtis on it. Elaine always in my view always gets it right in her discriptions of her experiances of the scene and why we get involved, don`t know her but would love to met her.

 

Can't stand the 'grim up north' we all worked down t'pit' angle, not completely true is it?

I don't know anyone that worked down a pit & I got the train to Wigan every weekend along with dozens & dozens of my mates & people from Warrington.

Why do they always harp on about that angle, it's b@ll@cks & as stereotypical as the nostalgia scene.

 

 

There was quite a few in our crowd, mainly due to the fact that in our area almost everyone did work in the pit so its always seemed appropriate to me.

I can see what you're saying though

Same old same old, talking about the same old same old cliched clap trap, once again, no reference to the late 80,s and 90,s and no contribution from anyone who lived it or influenced it, yaaaaaawn

 

Kev

I've come to expect very little from anything to do with Northern Soul on the idiot box and this program was no exception.

Ian Dewhirst made a solid contribution as did Cleggy who tells it like it is or was and doesn't bullshit. Even Levine made some very good points and nice to see some humility and regret from him. Richard always talks sense.

Lisa Stansfield, what was the point? Same with Marc Almond and what makes Norman J such an expert, he does talk some bollox.

But watching this program you would think it all ended in 81 with the closure of Wigan and everyone then went to raves and got off their tits, only for Kev to come and rescue the scene and make it what it is today.

The 80's and early 90's were conveniently erased probably because most of those involved were not there, had gone to pastures greener. They forget the 80's turned up an awful lot of records that feature prominently in most DJ's sets every week. The lost decades gave those who'd buggered off something to come back to and exploit as quite a few have and still do. The likes of Cleethorpes, Clifton Hall, Stafford and the 100 Club, and others every bit as important in the scenes history, conveniently ignored. Some of these made a bigger contribution to the scene than some of the clubs talked about.

Where was Ady Croasdell? His contribution is probably greater than any of those interviewed. He was there at the beginning, was there in the years that don't matter and still there today. The discoveries from his and others work with Ace/Kent have been a mainstay for collectors and dj's for over 25 years.

Where was Butch? His contribution out weighs all of those in the program with the exception of Richard. Arguably the two best Dj's the scene has given us.

Where was the likes of John Anderson, John Manship, Dave Raistrick and many others who actually found many of those classic records from the scenes golden days.

I gave the program two out of five simply because contributions were made from far too many who don't matter and none from many who do matter. The sooner a program is made about the scene from those who made the scene what it is and not from those who hold sway with telly execs the better.

Hopefully one positive thing is that the good records featured sounded absolutely great.

 

Imagine hearing the Gloria Jones version of "Tainted Love" for the first time if you had only been familiar with the cover versions. The downside to that is the inclusion of Wigan's Ovation or Tony Blackburn giving the impression that these had anything to do with the real scene. Unnecessary and unforgivable. A stitch-up again.

 

The cod-musicology bit of it was frustrating. Emphasis on the 4/4 thing making Northern Soul fans sound like retards who couldn't accept any more complex music. There's a huge diversity in the music and always has been. If there hadn't have been the scene would have burned out in under three years.

 

I wondered if my criticism of this yesterday was too harsh, but on reflection it wasn't. There have now been so many of these shows that there should be simply no excuse in falling into the same old traps. It's almost as if this was a pastiche of other Northern Soul documentaries.

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by garethx

 Hi Ian

Not moving in such illustious circles as your self the best I can come up with to reinforce  my point  are the ramblings of a ex Glaswegian dustman and a an ex gas fitter from Hertfordshire. The Dustman by the name of John Anderson recalls Levine pestering him for a record entitled "It Really Hurts Me Girl" that he, Levine reputedly had heard played on the radio, stateside and couldn't find a copy. Lucky John put him out of his misery by finding one of the first two known white demo's out of his racks along with Eddie Foster's "I Never Knew" (amongst many, many others), Yes Levine did spin the Carstairs first but he didn't find it. On to the gas fitter a bashful guy known only as Mick Smith upon his return with his trusty man servant Clive from the states in March of 73 promptly sold Levine The first copy of Lee David "Temptations Calling My Name", Tony Clark's "Landslide and Patti Austin's "Painstain" so that's aleast 5 legendary classic's that didn't come out of the Miami load.

I too also agree with some of the previous other posters that Soul Sam should be included in any future attempted shows and how about another Northern Soul Lifer's contribution ? Keith Minshull some what disfunctional at times but he's got a memory like an Elephant 

Dave

 

Gas Fitter and Manservant also forund the wonderful "Crazy Baby" by The Coasters and "Time's A Wasting" by The Fuller Brothers

There was quite a few in our crowd, mainly due to the fact that in our area almost everyone did work in the pit so its always seemed appropriate to me.

I can see what you're saying though

Same here, knew many from Chesterfield who worked down t'pit, like Mansfield, chesterfield was a mining or factory based economy.

I can also see what Aid saying, typecasting those from up north but like the show in general I expect little else. Poor lazy film making IMO.

There's a lot of people missing the point here.  It was a documentary about THE SEVENTIES not the 80's and beyond

There's a lot of people missing the point here.  It was a documentary about THE SEVENTIES not the 80's and beyond

 

 

I dunno. I got the impression it was a documentary about a scene that started in the 70s and then had a legacy, because they also talked about the acid house scene in 1988 and soft cell in the 80s and also some of the kids getting into it today. If it had been a purely historical piece about the 70s then fair enough.

I dunno. I got the impression it was a documentary about a scene that started in the 70s and then had a legacy, because they also talked about the acid house scene in 1988 and soft cell in the 80s and also some of the kids getting into it today. If it had been a purely historical piece about the 70s then fair enough.

 

Apologies, I thought the series was going to be about the 70's.

I dunno. I got the impression it was a documentary about a scene that started in the 70s and then had a legacy, because they also talked about the acid house scene in 1988 and soft cell in the 80s and also some of the kids getting into it today. If it had been a purely historical piece about the 70s then fair enough.

Me too. Maybe they should have used a more relevant title for the program and not one that covers a scene that has been going for some for over 40 years, not just 10 of them.

Apologies, I thought the series was going to be about the 70's.

But even if that was the case some of those involved had little relevance other than maybe travelling up from london the odd time and jumping the queue at wigan because he was a cockney....what a load of bollox. Same for Lisa Stansfield, no relevance at all really in the history of the scene. Why not use more of those who made the scene like Dave Clegg, there is bloody long list of people who really matter they could have used. Again lazy film making.

But Wigan has been done to death so why bother at all?

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by chalky

Chalky, it's like making a documentary about the Premier League where they know the audience figures will be massive, and following it up with a documentary about non-League football, where there is only a minority interest.  I don't mean that to sound harsh towards what happened post-Wigan but the media see that 200 people in the 100 Club is not really the equivalent of 2000 people at The Casino - the only people who know it's the same are us.

Every scene, cult, craze has it's peak period and this is what's always focused on by the media, and that's why we get what we always get.

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by Pete S

There's a lot of people missing the point here.  It was a documentary about THE SEVENTIES not the 80's and beyond

Then why mention what's happening now at all?

Then why mention what's happening now at all?

 

Just to let people know that the corpse is still twitching

I  very much get the point about  people doing northern industrial jobs, (not mining neccesarily)        The crowd I went to the all nighters with in the seventies were mainly working in factories or on some kind of industrial apprentiships  or similar , anyone not fitting this description would not quite fit  at that time.   There was a guy from Burnley i think used to frequent the record bar at wigan  who used to  pull out a pair of glasses to inspect a record he was interested in ,    so notable and strange was this behavior that he was nicknamed     " The  Proffessor " .                                                At the time i paid no attention to this aspect of the scene, the sociological and racial stratification of its attendees (mainly white working class youth, the programme stated ) and the attendant social climate of the time ,   Looking back at a programme like that puts it into context .                 Did i ever conciously   think at the time ,  that i was escaping at the weekend through the soul scene  from a dreary day to day existence with few opportunities ?  No.     Was i in actual fact doing just that ? maybe , yes.

I enjoyed it.

Thought Ian D's contribution was excellent.

Generally a very good programme, especially for those on the outside looking in.

Can't stand the 'grim up north' we all worked down t'pit' angle, not completely true is it?

I don't know anyone that worked down a pit & I got the train to Wigan every weekend along with dozens & dozens of my mates & people from Warrington.

Why do they always harp on about that angle, it's b@ll@cks & as stereotypical as the nostalgia scene.

Moan over, but don't get me wrong, really good & optimistic view if the scene going forward.

I was at the Ritz Dayers when all that Levine must go stuff was going on & it captured that time & the reasons well I thought.

So overall, pretty good job.

 

 

Air kid went to Wigan and air dad worked down the mines (the iron ore variety) and we live only 65 miles north of London. They didn't mention that, did they?

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by Maark

As a new lad to the soul scene I sort of enjoyed it. Mind you, I can't find my arse with two hands at the best of times so I'll leave it at that.

 

Air kid went to Wigan and air dad worked down the mines (the iron ore variety) and we live only 65 miles north of London. They didn't mention that, did they?

Without being pedantic about this, I'm sure there was some, but of the 2000 in there every week, a very very small % would have worked down a pit, they were talking as if it was the other way round that's all.

It's just good stereotype fodder for lazy journalists.

Anyway other than that, and that Pete Waterman bloke 'northern Soul DJ, your avin a laugh' who lies every time his lips move, it's was very good otherwise.

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by MrsWoodsrules

 I think the all working down the pit malarky seems to  be a carry over (that always gets trotted out) due to the "This England" documentary that used the "working class" angle to feature a girl from Wigan if memory serves (who worked in a mill or laundry) having a weekday life of drudgery and living for the weekend!

I gave it only a 1 I'm afraid. Mainly because I thought it was boring! Same old talking heads telling same old anecdotes (with a couple of new ones probably thought up the day before?) Just saw it as an ad for a film by vested interests, which will probably also bore the arse off me. Maybe it's just me, but none of this affects me, affects what I do, or influences me at all. And to top it all off......Waterman, Blackburn, Stansfield, Norman Jay (MBE...ooooh!), Stringfellow etc! But no Goodies doing Black Pudding Bertha!? What's all that about then?

Not enough in these programmes about the music I feel. I enjoyed Martin Freeman's Detroit documentary much more. And NOTHING will ever match Ian Levine's TSWONS.

Regards,

Dave

Precisely. They're always going to concentrate on the most popular stuff unless they want to lose viewers.

 

Ian D 

The media always does this, persevering with the false assumption that the most popular is the most important - that somehow, we are more interested in the phenomenon of liking something, than in that which is liked. Hence the bizarre obsession with record sales, number ones, money made etc and the disregard of 1000s of great pieces of commercially unsuccessful music...

so in this case, the position is contradictory and absurd - shoehorning celebrities into a documentary about a scene that's whole purpose was to invert the mainstream, media-lead position and focus on music, regardless of its commercial success. To disregard celebrity culture and that whole 'propaganda of the victors' paradigm still running through the mainstream music media today.

if people can only relate to something via a celebrity endorsement, then they shouldn't be pandered to but cured of this affliction.

the best thing about underground culture, the phenomenon that absolutely encapsulates it, and particularly the soul and mod scenes, is that the person at the top of the game, who knows more about music than pete water man , simon cowell and all those chumps combined could well be a welder from Stoke, a mechanic from manchester or a drug dealer from sheffield.

Fat middle ages guys can be great dancers, rough or awkward white British folks can gurn with ecstacy at the feeling expressd by black Americans decades earlier.

I know the programme did touch on this via ian levine and the lovely lady from edinburgh, may she rest in peace, but in wheeling on celebrities to talk shit, and to bring up tony blackburn, trivialises the whole thing.

As in all areas of life - the stars are the normal people who are good at stuff or passionate about stuff, who just get on with it, whether its the in thing or not.

If that alone isn't interesting enough to you then dont bother making a documentary at all, cos you dont get it.

.

After reading these posts,a lot of you touched on this ,but the makers always give the immpression  that people went to nighters because their lives were grim..........tosh  people went to work and they went out at the weekend  end of,grim or otherwise.

Norman jay just repeated what he has said via a Fred Perry interview. Who is Pete waterman? A chancer so i am told. Best get the lie detector out if there is to be another

Norman Jay, he knows what he's talking about! Plus WTF is Bill Brewster? Peter Stingfellow, Pete Waterman, Marc Almond ???

Pass me the sick bucket, load o' b*llocks as usual 

 Regardless of his actual  involvement, I found one of the best sound bites came from Norman Jay when he described the records being played such:

 

"what appeals is the honesty and integrity and the truth.."

 

Bang on comment for me..

Edited February 7, 201510 yr by pikeys dog
swearing - workplace filters

The media always does this, persevering with the false assumption that the most popular is the most important - that somehow, we are more interested in the phenomenon of liking something, than in that which is liked. Hence the bizarre obsession with record sales, number ones, money made etc and the disregard of 1000s of great pieces of commercially unsuccessful music...

so in this case, the position is contradictory and absurd - shoehorning celebrities into a documentary about a scene that's whole purpose was to invert the mainstream, media-lead position and focus on music, regardless of its commercial success. To disregard celebrity culture and that whole 'propaganda of the victors' paradigm still running through the mainstream music media today.

if people can only relate to something via a celebrity endorsement, then they shouldn't be pandered to but cured of this affliction.

the best thing about underground culture, the phenomenon that absolutely encapsulates it, and particularly the soul and mod scenes, is that the person at the top of the game, who knows more about music than pete water man , simon cowell and all those chumps combined could well be a welder from Stoke, a mechanic from manchester or a drug dealer from sheffield.

Fat middle ages guys can be great dancers, rough or awkward white British folks can gurn with ecstacy at the feeling expressd by black Americans decades earlier.

I know the programme did touch on this via ian levine and the lovely lady from edinburgh, may she rest in peace, but in wheeling on celebrities to talk shit, and to bring up tony blackburn, trivialises the whole thing.

As in all areas of life - the stars are the normal people who are good at stuff or passionate about stuff, who just get on with it, whether its the in thing or not.

If that alone isn't interesting enough to you then dont bother making a documentary at all, cos you dont get it.

.

And that my friend is post of the thread. Very well put indeed!

Cheers,

Mark R

Without being pedantic about this, I'm sure there was some, but of the 2000 in there every week, a very very small % would have worked down a pit, they were talking as if it was the other way round that's all.

It's just good stereotype fodder for lazy journalists.

Anyway other than that, and that Pete Waterman bloke 'northern Soul DJ, your avin a laugh' who lies every time his lips move, it's was very good otherwise.

 

There was a flyer on the programme about something called The International Soul Club Roadshow, with his name and Kev Roberts on it. Anyone remember that?

There was a flyer on the programme about something called The International Soul Club Roadshow, with his name and Kev Roberts on it. Anyone remember that?

 

Yeah they were big news at the time, 1974-75, organised do's, attempted the first weekenders, ran 'soul trains' etc.  Remember joining and having their sew on patch!

Actually Mark I think it maybe the post of the decade, well said that man.

 

No it's the post of the century.

Any advances? 

No it's the post of the century.

Any advances? 

 

Millenium?

Yeah they were big news at the time, 1974-75, organised do's, attempted the first weekenders, ran 'soul trains' etc.  Remember joining and having their sew on patch!

 

I can't tell if you're joking or not Pete...

There's a lot of people missing the point here.  It was a documentary about THE SEVENTIES not the 80's and beyond

No we're not, at no point did this purport be a documentary about Northern Soul in the 70s, the narrative structure creates conflicts with that with an incorrect bias that can only be read that NS was there in the 70s then back again now with Kevs nights offering the best of 3 venues from the 70s.

It's title was Northern Soul, I'm guessing those that dipped out are ok with that but you can't change history. It carried on without them and did very nicely on the sounds front too. Why not accept that.

No we're not, at no point did this purport be a documentary about Northern Soul in the 70s, the narrative structure creates conflicts with that with an incorrect bias that can only be read that NS was there in the 70s then back again now with Kevs nights offering the best of 3 venues from the 70s.

It's title was Northern Soul, I'm guessing those that dipped out are ok with that but you can't change history. It carried on without them and did very nicely on the sounds front too. Why not accept that.

 

What are you on about, accept what? - I've been on the scene since 1974 and still am, thanks.  

Here is it's synopsis from the BBC's own page.  Note it mentions the 1970's and nothing else.  Therefore, I would expect it to be a documentary about what happened in the 1970's, as would anyone else who read it

 

Film about the northern soul phenomenon, one of the most exciting underground British club movements of the 1970s, a dynamic culture of fashions, dance moves and vinyl obsession.

People are questioning Watermans relevance...well he was busy deejaying in July 73 at Mr Georges.Whilst he was there he created acid house and the smiley symbol...isn't this common knowledge?

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by wiggyflat

I can't tell if you're joking or not Pete...

 

Very ubiquitous in the 70's.

 

I can't tell if you're joking or not Pete...

 

No of course I'm not joking!  But I am getting mixed up.  I'm thinking of the Inter City Soul Club.

The International Soul Club was run by people who had something to do with the Torch and was amongst other things, an outlet for the Out Of The Past bootleg 45's many soul patches

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by Pete S

To Toad your quote...   Who is Pete waterman? A chancer so i am told.

(He's a multi millionaire who played Northern in the early 70's !)

 

To Matt Male your quote.....   There was a flyer on the programme about something called The International Soul Club Roadshow, with his name and Kev Roberts on it. Anyone remember that?

(I supplied the flyer to the BBC as they wanted relevant material from me circa 1973-75. Pete was the resident DJ at Tiffany's, Coventry. I guested there every Tuesday at the height of Wigan fame)

 

To Byrney  your quote...... No we're not, at no point did this purport be a documentary about Northern Soul in the 70s, the narrative structure creates conflicts with that with an incorrect bias that can only be read that NS was there in the 70s then back again now with Kevs nights offering the best of 3 venues from the 70s.

(The brief to Myself, Richard, Ian and Colin was to answer questions on the early to mid 70's. They asked me to comment on the scene as I saw it today as a promoter. I gave them a warts n all reply about the popularity, collectors scene, spin off genres Fast n Funky, R&B etc etc etc.....11 second soundbite was used!)

 

Hopefully a program will be made about post 1981..... and what's happening now as we all know it's clearly more popular than ever.

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by The Golden 101

I wonder how these program's come about. Does some TV executive decide to make a program about Northern Soul and send an email to a producer and say "get on with it"? Then I imagine said producer Googles Northern Soul to find an advisor. Mmmm, this guy Russ Winstanley seems to be the go to guy. The rest is obvious.

People are questioning Watermans relevance...well he was busy deejaying in July 73 at Mr Georges.Whilst he was there he created acid house and the smiley symbol...isn't this common knowledge?

i remember those ads well to me it always looked like played out records and pressings look at that ad thats 1973 oh pretty lady etc, dont really think anything was really happening there...

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by ric-tic

What are you on about, accept what? - I've been on the scene since 1974 and still am, thanks.

Here is it's synopsis from the BBC's own page. Note it mentions the 1970's and nothing else. Therefore, I would expect it to be a documentary about what happened in the 1970's, as would anyone else who read it

Film about the northern soul phenomenon, one of the most exciting underground British club movements of the 1970s, a dynamic culture of fashions, dance moves and vinyl obsession.

and as I said before their premise is wrong: by what you've quoted above it outlines that NS was a scene of the 70s. It wasn't - it started there.

You just seem a bit enthusiastic to dispel our concerns so from that I guessed you packed in after Wigan for the periods I and others are talking about. So if you went to Stafford, the 100 Club, Oddfellows, Blackburn etc you must know what I mean Pete.

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by Byrney

and as I said before their premise is wrong: by what you've quoted above it outlines that NS was a scene of the 70s. It wasn't - it started there.

You just seem a bit enthusiastic to dispel our concerns so from that I guessed you packed in after Wigan for the periods I and others are talking about. So if you went to Stafford, the 100 Club, Oddfellows, Blackburn etc you must know what I mean Pete.

 

No you're right, the day after Wigan closed in 1981 I disappeared until 2001, I didn't write any magazines, swap tapes with anyone, do a monthly list, go to any events or buy any records during that time.  I became a Buddhist Monk based in Tipton and took a vow of silence.  No one saw me or spoke to me.  I had absolutely no ideaNorthern Soul carried on after Wigan and rely on the likes of yourself to fill me in, being f*cking clueless like.

Norman jay just repeated what he has said via a Fred Perry interview. Who is Pete waterman? A chancer so i am told. Best get the lie detector out if there is to be another

In fairness Tim, I can tell you for a fact that Mick Hubbard used to buy records off Waterman in the 70's. Not that that makes him a key player or important, and certainly the fact that he's a millionaire industry figure means nowt to something like the NS scene, but it's worthy of note for the record.

Cheers,

Mark R

Edited July 27, 201411 yr by Mark R

I enjoyed it, but wasn't entirely sure why lisa stansfield featured? No disrespect to her (I've got tickets for her Northampton gig) .Also mincing Marc almond?.? Yuk

Lots of good info , from most featured. overall , very good

The only way the "Scene" will ever be portrayed in a way that satisfies everyone will be if it is filmed and funded by the people on the inside. Until then 

there will always be discussions about who could have  said what and why. Then you would have to sell it to a mainstream TV company saying it doesn't feature any Talking heads but it's tells the truth and its good.

 

Chris.

BBC4 are airing "Rock and Roll Britannia" next Friday.  There'll be a lot of disgruntled 70 year old Teddy Boys come Saturday morning.

No you're right, the day after Wigan closed in 1981 I disappeared until 2001, I didn't write any magazines, swap tapes with anyone, do a monthly list, go to any events or buy any records during that time.  I became a Buddhist Monk based in Tipton and took a vow of silence.  No one saw me or spoke to me.  I had absolutely no ideaNorthern Soul carried on after Wigan and rely on the likes of yourself to fill me in, being f*cking clueless like.

Bit defensive there Lad. Did I say you disappeared?

I took it from your comments you carried on. Anyway you seem to be getting a bit hysterical so I'll step away from you now