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Prophonics 2029

Carstairs ?

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Dave,  the pink copy of Carstairs is a reissue. Only original is the white demo, and even that was booted but can easily tell as the poor quality label gives it away. Originals have the matrix "STERLING" both machine and scratched in, both systems were used at the time they were pressed. The pink issue has always been known to be a reissue, it was released due to the popularity of the record in the UK in the early 70s. What you pay for it is up to you, but personally I'd hang on and wait for an original to surface as the pink ones go for silly money at times :g:

Edited by foi

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Dave,  the pink copy of Carstairs is a reissue. Only original is the white demo, and even that was booted but can easily tell as the poor quality label gives it away. Originals have the matrix "STERLING" both machine and scratched in, both systems were used at the time they were pressed. The pink issue has always been known to be a reissue, it was released due to the popularity of the record in the UK in the early 70s. What you pay for it is up to you, but personally I'd hang on and wait for an original to surface as the pink ones go for silly money at times :g:

 

How can the first issue of a record that was not issued before be a reissue ?.

By your logic only demo copies of records can be originals and stock copies must all be reissues.

Edited by Kegsy

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How can the first issue of a record that was not issued before be a reissue ?.

By your logic only demo copies of records can be originals and stock copies must all be reissues.

Well, I picked my pink issue copy 15 years ago or so for 50p in Ostend (Belgium). When I was proposed an original demo a little while after, I couldn't care to replace my "cheap-prized" pink copy and so I passed over it. Only recently I had a chance to secure a promo copy on a trade and when I dropped the needle... the sound of it just blew me away. I never was convinced by the whole mastering behind the official pink release and this is not a question of vinyl versus styrene I believe. My searches took me to few discussions on here about the date for the pink release. It seems to have been two years after the first promo release (december 1973). It was re-released with no promo stage to promote it since it was made mainly to supply a specific UK demand/market. Subsequently it would find it's way into sales boxes as an "import".  That qualifies as a reissue to me. About the lo-fi quality sound of the pink release; could it be that they didn't had the tapes anymore to re-release it and it was just dubbed from a promo copy ? If not, why such a gap in sound quality there ?

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How can the first issue of a record that was not issued before be a reissue ?.

By your logic only demo copies of records can be originals and stock copies must all be reissues.

Kegsy,

 

Good point maybe I should have carefully chosen my words so here goes...the pink Red Coach copy is a "second press or reissue" or whatever you want to call it.  "Tlscapital" hit the nail on the head and elaborated a little where I left off in my original post. The pink second press/reissue was released 2 years later. It was first played at the Mecca by Ian Levine who so say discovered it on one of his U.S. record hunting trips, that copy he had was a white demo. The only first press originals are white demos, hope that explains my original post a little more?

Great record by the way,doesnt really matter in what format you own it really all down to personal choice!

cheers :thumbsup:

Edited by foi

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Well, I picked my pink issue copy 15 years ago or so for 50p in Ostend (Belgium). When I was proposed an original demo a little while after, I couldn't care to replace my "cheap-prized" pink copy and so I passed over it. Only recently I had a chance to secure a promo copy on a trade and when I dropped the needle... the sound of it just blew me away. I never was convinced by the whole mastering behind the official pink release and this is not a question of vinyl versus styrene I believe. My searches took me to few discussions on here about the date for the pink release. It seems to have been two years after the first promo release (december 1973). It was re-released with no promo stage to promote it since it was made mainly to supply a specific UK demand/market. Subsequently it would find it's way into sales boxes as an "import".  That qualifies as a reissue to me. About the lo-fi quality sound of the pink release; could it be that they didn't had the tapes anymore to re-release it and it was just dubbed from a promo copy ? If not, why such a gap in sound quality there ?

Have to agree with the comments regarding sound quality.  Played back to back there is a marked audible difference between orig demo & pink "stock" copies.  In addition to the comments above I think a little bit of this lo fi quality is also down to the materials, styrene vs vinyl.  Styrene to my ear has a very different sound characteristic when compared to vinyl & I think this adds to the overall drop in quality.  At one point I was going to post both tracks back to back on my youtube channel to demonstrate the difference but sadly never got around to doing it.

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Kegsy,

 

Good point maybe I should have carefully chosen my words so here goes...the pink Red Coach copy is a "second press or reissue" or whatever you want to call it.  "Tlscapital" hit the nail on the head and elaborated a little where I left off in my original post. The pink second press/reissue was released 2 years later. It was first played at the Mecca by Ian Levine who so say discovered it on one of his U.S. record hunting trips, that copy he had was a white demo. The only first press originals are white demos, hope that explains my original post a little more?

Great record by the way,doesnt really matter in what format you own it really all down to personal choice!

cheers :thumbsup:

 

Actually Ian heard the record on the radio whilst in the U.S. no doubt played on a Demo copy.

He did not get a copy when he was in the U.S.

I believe he got a copy in the UK quite some time after the U.S. trip (John Anderson ?).

I would also dispute that there was a gap of anywhere near 2 years between

it being played at the Mecca and the pink copies becoming available, more like 2/3 months.

As far as I remember the pink copies were sold through the normal outlets,

that sold new U.S. releases, such as Record Corner and Global.

There was also an issue with Red Coach changing distributors about the same time.

The pink label is no clue either as Red Coach 801, the release before it,  has the same design

but 803,804,805 have the red label, then its back to pink for 807.

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Actually Ian heard the record on the radio whilst in the U.S. no doubt played on a Demo copy.

He did not get a copy when he was in the U.S.

I believe he got a copy in the UK quite some time after the U.S. trip (John Anderson ?).

I would also dispute that there was a gap of anywhere near 2 years between

it being played at the Mecca and the pink copies becoming available, more like 2/3 months.

As far as I remember the pink copies were sold through the normal outlets,

that sold new U.S. releases, such as Record Corner and Global.

There was also an issue with Red Coach changing distributors about the same time.

The pink label is no clue either as Red Coach 801, the release before it,  has the same design

but 803,804,805 have the red label, then its back to pink for 807.

Hmm...I always thought it was later than a few weeks before the pink copies came out...? Maybe 2 years is a bit of an exaggeration....

 

I know that Ian dewhirst had a copy at some point back then and also know it was Anderson that sold the pink ones in the 70s at Soul Bowl, and ya right it was Anderson that gave Levine a copy here in the UK. Thing is with this topic theres quite a bit of hearsay and its such a long time ago that memories become less sharp!! Would be great to clear up the whole different release numbers thing though??!

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Hmm...I always thought it was later than a few weeks before the pink copies came out...? Maybe 2 years is a bit of an exaggeration....

 

I know that Ian dewhirst had a copy at some point back then and also know it was Anderson that sold the pink ones in the 70s at Soul Bowl, and ya right it was Anderson that gave Levine a copy here in the UK. Thing is with this topic theres quite a bit of hearsay and its such a long time ago that memories become less sharp!! Would be great to clear up the whole different release numbers thing though??!

 

The red label releases may well have something to do with Vigor records which

used a solid red label for its early stuff.

Vigor was in the same stable as Red Coach and De-lite, perhaps they just

used the red blanks until they could get the pink label sorted out with

the new distributor.

Interestingly though all the red label releases are 1973 and AFTER 801 Carstairs.

If the Carstairs did come out in December 1973 then they were very prolific release wise in that month.

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I have styrene and vinyl copys of other records, if it's a stereo record the sound quality of the styrene wipes the floor with vinyl especially on the bass.

There're good vinyls out there as bad ones. Styrene is the same. But here I believe the quality of the styrene is maybe not the best, but that is not the whole problem to my ears with this 45; the styrene pink issue is not as loud, not as clear and somehow sounds like a muffled poor mono on it's own and now even more after hearing the white demo first issue. It's a bit like comparing an original 6T's jamaican 45 with a 7T's reissue. The sound quality issue is the same as here and tend to make you fall out of love of these release in the end that are so lo-fi. Good styrene on a good system have a bigger sound spectrum than vinyls since they have more depth: the bass are lower and the highs are higher. Totally agree there. 

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Hmm...I always thought it was later than a few weeks before the pink copies came out...? Maybe 2 years is a bit of an exaggeration....

 

I know that Ian dewhirst had a copy at some point back then and also know it was Anderson that sold the pink ones in the 70s at Soul Bowl, and ya right it was Anderson that gave Levine a copy here in the UK. Thing is with this topic theres quite a bit of hearsay and its such a long time ago that memories become less sharp!! Would be great to clear up the whole different release numbers thing though??!

 

 

The red label releases may well have something to do with Vigor records which

used a solid red label for its early stuff.

Vigor was in the same stable as Red Coach and De-lite, perhaps they just

used the red blanks until they could get the pink label sorted out with

the new distributor.

Interestingly though all the red label releases are 1973 and AFTER 801 Carstairs.

If the Carstairs did come out in December 1973 then they were very prolific release wise in that month.

Here it is; the 3 firsts were Chess distributed then self, then through Red Lite and the last one here RC 814 has all the same letterings... as the pink Carstairs and it's 1975 ! So at least a year and I've read that it could have been 2... post-19710-0-25655600-1416072689.pngpost-19710-0-76208300-1416072730.pngpost-19710-0-43170600-1416072803.pngpost-19710-0-61218300-1416072820.pngpost-19710-0-17033400-1416072849.pngpost-19710-0-29154900-1416072870.pngpost-19710-0-66257100-1416072951_thumb.p

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I would also dispute that there was a gap of anywhere near 2 years between

it being played at the Mecca and the pink copies becoming available, more like 2/3 months.

 

We've had this discussion before Kegsy. I had the second copy and got a good 18-24 months play out of it before the pink ones arrived.

 

Ian D :)

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Here it is; the 3 firsts were Chess distributed then self, then through Red Lite and the last one here RC 814 has all the same letterings... as the pink Carstairs and it's 1975 ! So at least a year and I've read that it could have been 2... attachicon.gifCapture d’écran 2014-11-15 à 18.29.46.pngattachicon.gifCapture d’écran 2014-11-15 à 18.29.55.pngattachicon.gifCapture d’écran 2014-11-15 à 18.30.06.pngattachicon.gifCapture d’écran 2014-11-15 à 18.30.18.pngattachicon.gifCapture d’écran 2014-11-15 à 18.30.26.pngattachicon.gifCapture d’écran 2014-11-15 à 18.30.53.pngattachicon.gifCapture d’écran 2014-11-15 à 18.35.04.png

 

What a load of b*llocks.

The Carstairs is exactly like 807 Universal Mind, which is 1974, now would that be January 1974

or some time later.

The format/font is also exactly the same as the Red label  Richmond International release

from 1973.

Edited by pikeys dog
swearing - work filters

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We've had this discussion before Kegsy. I had the second copy and got a good 18-24 months play out of it before the pink ones arrived.

 

Ian D :)

 

Yes I know you keep telling me this shit.

So lets go through things chronologically.

The record was released in December 1973 and i reckon it took Ian about 6 months to get one

which would be about mid 1974, so 18/24 months after that would make it at least early 76 or mid 1976.

I had packed the nighter scene in mid  1975 and I already had a pink copy by then from Record Corner,

I remember showing it to Ian who was quite surprised to see it.

Edited by Kegsy

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I bought a proper mint white demo original not too long ago to replace my pink copy which i've had for years. When I dropped the needle on the white vinyl original I couldn't believe the difference. I was hearing things in the mix that I had never heard in 20+ years of owning the pink version. White vinyl orig. is the only way to go with this. One of the best records of all time I have to add, so it was worth waiting for a proper copy.

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We've had this discussion before Kegsy. I had the second copy and got a good 18-24 months play out of it before the pink ones arrived.

 

Ian D :)

 

One other pint.

Do you seriously think Soul Bowl, Global, Record Corner Etc. would

have taken 18/24 months to get copies of what was the biggest record in the country at the time ?.

These places were well plugged into what was being played as new releases and

usually had copies within a couple of weeks.

Even stuff considered "rare"  now, like Foster & Stevens, Exportations  and Innersection

were readily available from those outlets.

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One other pint.

Do you seriously think Soul Bowl, Global, Record Corner Etc. would

have taken 18/24 months to get copies of what was the biggest record in the country at the time ?.

These places were well plugged into what was being played as new releases and

usually had copies within a couple of weeks.

Even stuff considered "rare"  now, like Foster & Stevens, Exportations  and Innersection

were readily available from those outlets.

 

Weither it took 12 months, some more or some less, reissues are made when they are/can be made, not when the dealers/shops need to sell them cause it's a hot sound. Bootlegs are just that on the other hand.

 

What a load of b*llocks.

The Carstairs is exactly like 807 Universal Mind, which is 1974, now would that be January 1974

or some time later.

The format/font is also exactly the same as the Red label  Richmond International release

from 1973.

 

B*llocks... are a pair and so are eyes:

this (RC807) post-19710-0-99973200-1416131537.png is the same as (RC 801) post-19710-0-88379300-1416131648.png rather than (RC 814) post-19710-0-26792500-1416131693.png !!! Is that what you say ?

 

One other pint.

Do you seriously think Soul Bowl, Global, Record Corner Etc. would

have taken 18/24 months to get copies of what was the biggest record in the country at the time ?.

These places were well plugged into what was being played as new releases and

usually had copies within a couple of weeks.

Even stuff considered "rare"  now, like Foster & Stevens, Exportations  and Innersection

were readily available from those outlets.

 

So where does the factor about new release comes in as a proof of anything ? Records in the USA often had a second lease. Sometimes few years after the first one. Sometimes even on another label or under new credits. Those did also found their ways in their time of release with "real" the new released stuffs on to the shelves.

 

Beside the factor of the gap between the two editions (Chess v/s Red Lite) it's a second/reissue that revealed to my surprise (as jordirip's) a vital sound issue to it and I was wondering if anyone could explain WHY beside the one being vinyl and the other one a styrene press. 

Edited by pikeys dog
swearing - work filters

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Bloody hell! So is my red/pink Carstairs a legit release or not? LOL

This is exactly why I'm happy with my new releases and buy very few older/rare records......it's a minefield if you're not really 100% keyed in to it!

It doesn't really matter, as I just bought it as a young lad that wanted the sound and wasn't hooked up on the kerlecting thing......it certainly didn't cost me a lot......

But threads like this remind me of how fraught all this is!!

It also puts a bit of a different slant on the playing OVO thing, as I'm sure in lots of cases folk wouldn't realise they weren't playing OVO with releases like this.

Hell, even the cognoscenti can't agree!!

Cheers,

Mark R

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Bloody hell! So is my red/pink Carstairs a legit release or not? LOL

This is exactly why I'm happy with my new releases and buy very few older/rare records......it's a minefield if you're not really 100% keyed in to it!

It doesn't really matter, as I just bought it as a young lad that wanted the sound and wasn't hooked up on the kerlecting thing......it certainly didn't cost me a lot......

But threads like this remind me of how fraught all this is!!

It also puts a bit of a different slant on the playing OVO thing, as I'm sure in lots of cases folk wouldn't realise they weren't playing OVO with releases like this.

Hell, even the cognoscenti can't agree!!

Cheers,

Mark R

The pink is legit, it's just not a second issue IMHO, since a second issue is made a short while after the first release. Either to supply the demand while it's becoming a hit or to promote it to a larger market through a national distributor or label. A reissue is made after/later for a "revival" to meet a new demand.

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I bought a proper mint white demo original not too long ago to replace my pink copy which i've had for years. When I dropped the needle on the white vinyl original I couldn't believe the difference. I was hearing things in the mix that I had never heard in 20+ years of owning the pink version. White vinyl orig. is the only way to go with this. One of the best records of all time I have to add, so it was worth waiting for a proper copy.

Don't suppose anyone has sound files of the W/D and the pink issue to we hear the actual difference - is the difference really that much?

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to be honest I didn't know there was a difference in the sound quality , until this thread , as jim has asked I would like to hear the difference , Ed

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Yes I know you keep telling me this shit.

So lets go through things chronologically.

The record was released in December 1973 and i reckon it took Ian about 6 months to get one

which would be about mid 1974, so 18/24 months after that would make it at least early 76 or mid 1976.

I had packed the nighter scene in mid  1975 and I already had a pink copy by then from Record Corner,

I remember showing it to Ian who was quite surprised to see it.

My bad here (I have in mind to have read somewhere december), but in fact it's rather early/mid 1973. Anyway, baring in mind that it is earlier it would makes this release few months earlier than first thought/calculated. So Ian D is likely to be more accurate than vague from his memory.

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My bad here (I have in mind to have read somewhere december), but in fact it's rather early/mid 1973. Anyway, baring in mind that it is earlier it would makes this release few months earlier than first thought/calculated. So Ian D is likely to be more accurate than vague from his memory.

 

The way of nailing the argument is to maybe dig out the Echoes or Blues & Soul's and check when the ads for the reissue started. I probably got the record in 1974, had 12-18 months on it, so I would imagine sometime in 1975 would be the year it was re-issued. I was in the U.S. 6 months later so that would make sense to me.

 

Also, the licensing for Red Coach was probably very confused at that time. They were probably busy extricating themselves from Chess distribution, then self-distributing for a while before switching to Red-Lite. Given the circumstances they were going through, 18-24 months doesn't seem a long time before they got around to re-pressing the record for the UK market.

 

Ian D  :D

Edited by Ian Dewhirst

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I considered myself VERY FORTUNATE to be playing this at the height of it's popularity in 1974 on a lovely Vinyl W/DJ Copy on solid vinyl.

The PINK Copies were legit issues pressed to satisfy the demand for the Northern Soul Scene,Top quality and direct from source.

 

Around the same time this GEEZER FROM DOWN SOUTH strides into the BLACKPOOL MECCA with a box full of White Demo Boots with dodgy looking labels and weak text that to me look off centre...What an Horrible and Distatsteful thing to do :ohmy:

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Manship guide to bootlegs, counterfeits & reissues states "Redcoach 802 bootlegged as a white demo. The counterfeit has 'sterling' scratched in the run out groove. The original has it stamped in"

Koppel & Brown essential Northern Soul price guide 2nd ed states " Redcoach 802 all issues were done for the UK market, the real original is only the promo. But the promo was bootlegged as well on a poor looking 45 with convexed label and blurred typeface. Forget the nonsense about original demos only having a typefaced sterling stamp, originals come with both stamped and scratched sterling matrixes."

This may help resolve some issues in respect of bootlegs but they disagree on the scratched sterling matrix on the promo. So if you are a seller and you have the scratched matrix then you can say according to Koppel & Brown it is an original but present it to JM and he may take issue with you. 

Where do the OVO police stand on the matter of original Carstairs before someone gets arrested for erroneously possessing a bootleg and given a mandatory sentence of 3 months inside with Soft Cell's version of Tainted love piped into their prison cell 24/7.......  :yes:

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He did not get a copy when he was in the U.S.

I believe he got a copy in the UK quite some time after the U.S. trip (John Anderson ?).

 

 

Correct, Ian found it at Soul Bowl….in the 50p bin I think John said...

Edited by Steve G

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Here is an old thread about re issues that includes a bit about The Carstairs

As to the time between Ian Levine first playing it and the pink copies I'd put it at about 8 to 10 months.

I got a white promo copy from Bob Cateano around 3 or 4 months after Ian played it and remember it being about 6 months before it was done on the pink label. I mentioned to Ian that I had my copy coming from the US and he was very keen to buy it if it was a stock copy, it wasn't but it had 25c (cents) written on the label. Somewhere I've got loads of Black Echoes and one day might dig them out and go through the ads.

Personally I'd call the pink label a re-issue not the first issue, although technically it was. A first issue would be when the record came out and the following period when the record label still had hopes for it. In the US this could be months and could include issue on a second label for national distribution. A re-issue is done for some reason after the record appears to be finished.

The pink Carstairs is definitely not a bootleg as it was 100% legit.

I wonder if somewhere in the US an ex employee of Red Coach or the pressing company has a pink Chess distributed copy that escaped the crusher, the same as the London stock copy of D Banks. Now wouldn't that cause a fuss.

Rick

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This is where it all starts to get ridiculous and some do like to make it hard work.  The demo isn't a first issue, it is what it says a demo. The pink one is the first issue albeit done after the popularity of the disc over here and to satisfy demand here.  It can't be a reissue as it hadn't been issued prior to the pink one, just the promo/demo copies that were in circulation.

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Here is an old thread about re issues that includes a bit about The Carstairs

As to the time between Ian Levine first playing it and the pink copies I'd put it at about 8 to 10 months.

I got a white promo copy from Bob Cateano around 3 or 4 months after Ian played it and remember it being about 6 months before it was done on the pink label. I mentioned to Ian that I had my copy coming from the US and he was very keen to buy it if it was a stock copy, it wasn't but it had 25c (cents) written on the label. Somewhere I've got loads of Black Echoes and one day might dig them out and go through the ads.

Personally I'd call the pink label a re-issue not the first issue, although technically it was. A first issue would be when the record came out and the following period when the record label still had hopes for it. In the US this could be months and could include issue on a second label for national distribution. A re-issue is done for some reason after the record appears to be finished.

The pink Carstairs is definitely not a bootleg as it was 100% legit.

I wonder if somewhere in the US an ex employee of Red Coach or the pressing company has a pink Chess distributed copy that escaped the crusher, the same as the London stock copy of D Banks. Now wouldn't that cause a fuss.

Rick

Think I'm with Rick on the timeline of this. Less than a year I would have said.

Pretty sure Levine played this at Sale Mecca for the first time before Blackpool.

Surely using 're-issue' implies an issue had already taken place which appears not to be the case here.

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This is where it all starts to get ridiculous and some do like to make it hard work. The demo isn't a first issue, it is what it says a demo. The pink one is the first issue albeit done after the popularity of the disc over here and to satisfy demand here. It can't be a reissue as it hadn't been issued prior to the pink one, just the promo/demo copies that were in circulation.

I have to admit, from what I have read on this thread, I was thinking along these lines Chalky.

Cheers,

Mark R

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I'd have said no more than 10 months max between it being first played by Levine and the pink ones coming through.

 

My memory serves me well because I got a W/D when it was still a massive Mecca record (in the same bunch I got the W/D's of both sides of Universal Mind) and thought I'd got my hands on the holy grail... and then soon after everybody had a  copy!

 

Id have said that was '74 (because of who I was going out with at the time.... She didn't last as long as the record, but it was fun while it lasted...).

 

:D

 

Sean

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 The demo isn't a first issue, it is what it says a demo. .

The demo is part of the first issue release. That's why it has the official release number on it!

When a record is first issued some are for promotion and some are stock copies to sell in the shops.

Both are part of the official release complete with release numbers and details.

The Carstairs only got as far as white demo USA release, distributed by Chess.

The pink label copies were a special product for a specialist market in the UK. Never intended for the USA market. They did not even have a new number but kept the 802 number from the Chess distrubuted release!

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It was never issued for general public release or sale though, that's the point I was making.  It only got as far as the promotional stage and obviously did nothing over there and release was dropped.  It was then issued for the first time on general sale to satisfy the market here.

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It was never issued for general public release or sale though, that's the point I was making.  It only got as far as the promotional stage and obviously did nothing over there and release was dropped.  It was then issued for the first time on general sale to satisfy the market here.

Chalky,

I'm with Solidsoul on this. Issuing a record is made up of a number of different stages, manufacturing, trade ads,press release, radio promo copies and sending stock to distributors. The Carstairs went through enough of these to be more issued than unissued. I understood it didn't get to the shops as Chess was sold to GRT just after the promos had been sent out, so the record was cancelled and stock destroyed. When the pink copies were done I don't think Red Coach would have considered it to be the delayed first issue, more like a special pressing.

Rick

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Chalky,

I'm with Solidsoul on this. Issuing a record is made up of a number of different stages, manufacturing, trade ads,press release, radio promo copies and sending stock to distributors. The Carstairs went through enough of these to be more issued than unissued. I understood it didn't get to the shops as Chess was sold to GRT just after the promos had been sent out, so the record was cancelled and stock destroyed. When the pink copies were done I don't think Red Coach would have considered it to be the delayed first issue, more like a special pressing.

Rick

 

I understand that Rick and don't disgree but like I said i think we are simply just complicating matters for the sake of it.  We generally class records as either, demo (or promo), issue (local and nationally for general sale to the public)), reissue or a bootleg.  It is irrelevant if the pink is a special press, it was for all imtents and purposes the first time it was made for sale to the public.  So really unless a pink chess distributed copy appears, and there's never been one seen as far as I'm aware or any proof it was even pressed, then this pink one has to be the first issue for general sale. 

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