Is The ‘Upfront’ Soul Scene Disappearing up It’s Own A*se?

So why 1500 at Oldies v 300 tops at Upfront venues?

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Strong title I know folks and in no way meant in a derogatory manner - I’ll explain…

…I was reading Soul Sam’s article in Manifesto which was basically about this (My sub title) One point Sam made was that he couldn’t ‘Comprehend’ why on the same weekend most folk chose to go to a mainly oldies weekender over a very well known and established ‘Upfront’ all-nighter. He actually said ‘defies comprehension‘, so like many people who attend these upfront nights is very bothered by it.

Putting aside the obvious reasons why lots of venues ‘in general’ are suffering (too many events, weekenders, politics etc) This thread is to ask for your views on why there is such a difference in attendance between the two.

I hear certain things when I’m ‘Out and about’ for example, ref to stuff like ’No compromise’ I‘ve heard folk say - “It puts us off going” - I know a judgement can’t be made just off the back of a few comments so I’d like to know if ‘In general’ there is anything about the ‘Upfront’ side of the soul scene that stops some of you ‘returnees’ or staunch oldies fans from coming along and is there anything that you think could be done to attract more people to the upfront venues.

Is it because there seems to be no happy medium between the two? In your eyes, do the two types of venue go from one extreme to the other? Personally I think more could be done at the huge oldies All-nighters to include more upfront sounds in the main rooms, rather than just an additional small room. Many times I’ve heard real oldies fans crying out for something a bit different. I suppose the promoters of these events have the attitude of ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ which is a real shame (Especially when I hear ‘Philly Dog Around The World’ is played no less than three times!)

Is there a ‘Superiority’ vibe that comes across from ‘Upfront’ soul fans? - As I said, this is purely based on what I’ve heard people say and I am not accusing anyone or any venue of this myself.

Would putting someone like Brian Rae in the line up of an upfront event make it appeal to more people?

I think most people like all types of soul music (In this case oldies and upfront) and whatever ‘Camp’ they may be in would welcome a night where it is evenly split, both complimenting each other.

All this is just me ‘Thinking out loud’ and just to confirm, it’s not a case of - ‘Len get some sleep mush!’ :O) (Copyright Paul Donnelly) - Over to you guys, I‘m keen to hear others opinions.

Remember the 90’s soul scene, The Ritz Manchester etc, oldies fans and upfront fans enjoying ‘Good soul music’ together in the same HUGE hall - Are them days really numbered?…

Yours sincerely,

Len.

Edited September 18, 201113 yr by LEN

Chalky will recall that we were talking about Spoilers on GMC the other day and I said it was OK but I felt it was a bit ordinary compared to others from the time, to which he replied [after getting himself a copy] yes he could understand that but it sounded better than some of the stuff today. I think there is a truth there that in the hunt for upfront or different some less than ordinary records are being played. Or they were the last time I went out.

Phil says:-

Labels attached to everything which serve no constructive purpose.

In this debate people are banging on about upfront etc but it is just a label because if you look where people are giving examples of upfront it encompasses records that I would certainly class as oldies like Bob Collins,Puzzles,Robert Parker or 45s that are current biggies I guess but have been around years like Joseph Webster and Arthur Willis.

In other words upfront means nothing really as everybody has a different idea what it means.

I can't remember where the place was that Phil listed all the records played. Im thinking people would assume it was an upfront night. It was just good records that were worth playing and Im pretty sure I didn't see anything that could be said to stray too far from the Northern template and would be alien to someone used to Top 500 oldies.

ROD

Erudite as ever Mr S Precisely the main point I was trying to make, you just said it better Also spot on with your reference to the playlist I put up a couple of months ago. That was absolutely the intention, thinking and driving force behind that night: come along and have a good night out listening and hoperfully dancing your socks off to what we think are really good records. Not trying to pidgeon-hole anyone or anything, avoided it like the plague in fact.

I can remember having a chat with John Pugh on the night and saying I was worried in case it wasn't 'upfront' enough. He reckoned you'd be more likely to take folk with you if the steps were small and not too scary. I guess the issue then is, in the main, about compromises and balance? (oh aye, and having a good night out!)

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by PhilT

Here is how I see it...

Northern Soul consists of different styles of soulful danceable music.

The 'current or upfront' Northern Soul scene is actually quite small, and has been gradually been shrinking for years.

The resurgence in northern soul popularity has been in the 'nostalgic or classic' Northern Soul scene.

These two scenes are quite different and have totally different dynamics and customers expectations.

People like Kev Roberts cater for the 'nostalgic' scene very well.

The nostalgic scene will shrink back very rapidly soon has the age factor kicks in. It will then consist of local social nights and the odd weekender / convention. A bit like it is shaping into now actually.

The upfront scene has probably shrunk to its limit and already bottomed out. There is probably only room for 2 or 3 upfront venues at the very most.

As the nostalgic boom shrinks back, the upfront scene will expand slightly, also by those wanting to crossover into a fresher scene.

The nostalgic scene consists of a few thousand, the current scene consists of a few hundred.

The nostalgic scene is about enjoying the past. The upfront scene is about shaping the future.

I think you make some very good points there....

Many of us happy with a mix from Quality classic northern to rare underplayed or whatever the new buzz word is ...

Some people forget that we still want exciting nights that still give you the BUZZ, with new sounds, underplayed and classics, all mixed together.. The classics just don't need to be telegraphed like setting your watch waiting for the hit list...

We hear so much about toooooooooooooooo many djs and all that, i think its too many people playing yes but to call them all djs is taking the piss a little... DJS get you fired up and moist, hanging on their every word, while others can be dark clouds on a wet Monday..

keep it fresh, keep it exciting, long time dead and still life in many of us old dogs yet....

xx

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by rach

Christ not this discussion AGAIN....

Cant really call it upfront northen soul , whats being played from a few of us down south ( Ghetto Soul etc ), the term rare and underplayed dance music suits it better, basically there are so many types of music being played, it would be difficult to put it under one umbrella, we use to incororate it with oldies at the Bmth Railway club, seemed to work with good attendances and not to much moaning, on the hole though, think it needs to be in a dark and seedy little room with like minded soulies

.

could it be said that "upfront" is used more as an sort of actual "attitude" nowadays rather than a descriptive term of certain types of 45s ?

HI MIKE,

TO BE HONEST I THINK "ATTITUDE" IS APT TO DESCRIBE THINGS MUSICALLY BUT "UPFRONT" SHOULD ALSO BE SPOKEN IN THE SAME SENTANCE.

ROY

I think you make some very good points there....

Many of us happy with a mix from Quality classic northern to rare underplayed or whatever the new buzz word is ...

Some people forget that we still want exciting nights that still give you the BUZZ, with new sounds, underplayed and classics, all mixed together.. The classics just don't need to be telegraphed like setting your watch waiting for the hit list...

We hear so much about toooooooooooooooo many djs and all that, i think its too many people playing yes but to call them all djs is taking the piss a little... DJS get you fired up and moist, hanging on their every word, while others can be dark clouds on a wet Monday..

keep it fresh, keep it exciting, long time dead and still life in many of us old dogs yet....

xx

HI STEVIE,

Your still only a pup young man but have a great zest and hunger for all things soulful. Without you and a few others of your age from over the dark side of the pennines and some from gods county then the future of this scene would be like that of a plant that gets no water........ It will just wither and die.

:hatsoff2:

ROY

hello mate.

just to get this right lol we,ve heard that chalky played a mainly 60,s uptempo set what type of set did the rest play my thoughts are that sam and arthur like things on the modernish side, dave thorley tends to play a more mid tempo set (that,ll please lenny )mick h plays a rare mixed set ted plays mainly oldies/big ticket stuff and joan like to kick it up (good girl lol)........so theres quite a variation there......be interesting to know.........next week as danny would say BRING PLENTY OF WEDGE LOL.........lastly sure everyone had a good time thats the main thing......well except timbob lol......atb tezza

Hi Tezza,

The rare room was based around 60's and early 70's though nothing was set in stone.

Cheers Phil

sometimes i just dont get whats accepted in main rooms as an oldie when its clearly not soul and soul thats played in upfront or rare and underplayed rooms is not accepted a perfect mix of both in one room would for me make a great night and of course it should all be danceable but then again i dont know what aint danceable its all about mixing tempos and making just not a set flow but a whole night with geat contiuity of dj styles, when attending an olides night i go with an oldies head on when a rare night i go with an open mind and whatever i just hope i hear something i dont know that gives me that little tingle that just makes me want to dance and take note of what it is so i can hopefully buy one meself or just look foward to hearing it agin sometime just a shame that where i live there just isnt that evevnt that could give me my perfect night nighter you either hear the moans "not this again" or "play something we know" time to just get on with what is there cos nothing is gonna change thats for sure

I'M WITH PHIL ON THIS,FFS, AT THE END OF THE DAY IT'S A DISCO,WHERE SOME GUY(GAL) PLAYS A FEW TUNES IN THE HOPE THAT MAYBE PERCHANCE,THEY WILL ENTICE A NOTABLE PART OF THE CROWD TO TRIP THE LIGHT FANTASTIC,THERE MAYBE A BAR,WHERE YOU CAN PURCHASE A VARIED SELECTION OF TUMBLING DOWN WATER,AND YOU CAN BET YOUR LAST 5P THERE WILL BE A CORNER WHO MOAN LIKE FOOK THAT THE LAST RECORD PLAYED WAS "TOO FUNKY" "TOO SLOW" "TOO FAST","AN OLDIE" "A NEWIE" AND SO IT GO'S ON, I KNOW CERTAIN DIE HARD OLDIES FANS WOULD'NT EVEN ENTERTAIN THE IDEA OF VENTURING TO A VENUE STRIVING TO PLAY SOUNDS OF A MORE UPFRONT NATURE,WELL MAYBE IN THIRTY YEARS OR SO.

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by MR SOUL

It seems to me that the finger always seems to get pointed at the so-called 'upfront' promoters and venues as having a negative attitude towards northern soul and an arrogant and scornful view of the oldies crowd and oldies in general, and as being the destroyers of northern soul.

I just don't think that's true.

Maybe it'll make more sense if I explain my own experience...

When we started Move On it wasn't because we thought we were doing something new or different, it's because we wanted to return to the values of the scene in the past, namely seeking out new sounds, playing forgotten and rarely played oldies and expanding the idea of what constitutes northen soul.

We were considered an 'upfront' and underplayed venue, but personally I think we just played northern soul music and ran it in the best traditions of a northern soul night. For me everything we played either was, or had the potential to be, northern soul. We never once thought 'northern is crap lets play funk' or something like that. It was more, 'what can we try next that gets a good reaction and has the right sound for a northern soul crowd?' Adam was always playing me stuff and i'd say 'not dancable'. For me it always had to be dancable (i love dancing) and usually uptempo, so the myth of mid-tempo dirges at upfront nights wasn't true for us either. We experimented, but never compromised on quality, we believed in everything we played.

We also played plenty of oldies. Most of our crowd were long time northern fans who'd been around for decades, so it was impossible to pass anything already known as a newie. What we did do is played a lot of forgotten and rarely played oldies, the sort of stuff that had been played a couple of times and then dropped, not because it was crap, but because that's what the scene was like at one time. Many a time Eddie Hubbard or someone equally respectable and knowledgable came up and said they had what we'd played but had never heard it out and it was great to hear it getting plays. We were all about rarely played quality, uptempo dancable northern soul (of whatever genre).

So running a so-called upfront night, is (in my humble opinion) what the northern soul was once about and should be about again. I've got no problem whatsoever with oldies nights, nighters and with people listening to their favourite tunes from when they were seventeen to the exclusion of everything else, it's just not what I remember this scene was about when I signed up and it's surprising and saddening to me that it seems to be what the majority want thesedays.

Hope this makes sense.

HI MIKE,

TO BE HONEST I THINK "ATTITUDE" IS APT TO DESCRIBE THINGS MUSICALLY BUT "UPFRONT" SHOULD ALSO BE SPOKEN IN THE SAME SENTANCE.

ROY

Why should the term "upfront" be used? I don't think upfront is a very good term to describe what is being played. I don't consider myself an upfront DJ either. I just play or try and play records that 95% of the other DJ's are not playing, I try and play something different, something forgotten and if I get hold of something unknown then great. I try and use a bit of imagination and not follow the flock.

I love Northern Soul, Rare Soul, Modern Soul or whatever soul you want to call it, but I've no wish to go out and hear the same records today I first heard nearly 30 years ago no matter how good they are, and by and large they are good, better than many that are played under the banner of "rare" "upfront" blah blah blah. Did all those who have returned to the scene in the mid 90's and by and large changed it into a retro scene, hearing the same stuff they heard at Wigan and nothing like the scene before they returned, listen to the same top 40 every week whilst they had forgotten the scene existed? No I doubt they did. So why should this scene remain stuck in a time warp when there is so much good music out there. I personally can't see what pleasure other than social can be got listening to the same records every week, it would bore me to death.

Most of the negative comments I see towards the so called "upfront" seem to come from the oldies crowd, why don't they just stick to the oldies if they don't like what others are playing? There are more than enough venues catering for their needs. Leave those who want to listen to something different to do what they want.

Here is how I see it...

Northern Soul consists of different styles of soulful danceable music.

The 'current or upfront' Northern Soul scene is actually quite small, and has been gradually been shrinking for years.

The resurgence in northern soul popularity has been in the 'nostalgic or classic' Northern Soul scene.

These two scenes are quite different and have totally different dynamics and customers expectations.

People like Kev Roberts cater for the 'nostalgic' scene very well.

The nostalgic scene will shrink back very rapidly soon has the age factor kicks in. It will then consist of local social nights and the odd weekender / convention. A bit like it is shaping into now actually.

The upfront scene has probably shrunk to its limit and already bottomed out. There is probably only room for 2 or 3 upfront venues at the very most.

As the nostalgic boom shrinks back, the upfront scene will expand slightly, also by those wanting to crossover into a fresher scene.

The nostalgic scene consists of a few thousand, the current scene consists of a few hundred.

The nostalgic scene is about enjoying the past. The upfront scene is about shaping the future.

this seems pretty honest to me. But its never as clear cut as this, there are simply loads of punters who would refuse the stand in either or both camps.

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by geeselad

Upfront to me is about developing the sound, widening the perimetres of the scene, playing something fresh and exciting.I been to so many rare night where I've known an awful lot of the tunes played, and I certainly dont describe myself as an expert, but things that usually originate from the late wigan period or Stafford days, items that have been on CD's for quite a while now as well as being availible on tube and download, far from upfront, just oldies by a different name.

Here is how I see it...

Northern Soul consists of different styles of soulful danceable music.

The 'current or upfront' Northern Soul scene is actually quite small, and has been gradually been shrinking for years.

The resurgence in northern soul popularity has been in the 'nostalgic or classic' Northern Soul scene.

These two scenes are quite different and have totally different dynamics and customers expectations.

People like Kev Roberts cater for the 'nostalgic' scene very well.

The nostalgic scene will shrink back very rapidly soon has the age factor kicks in. It will then consist of local social nights and the odd weekender / convention. A bit like it is shaping into now actually.

The upfront scene has probably shrunk to its limit and already bottomed out. There is probably only room for 2 or 3 upfront venues at the very most.

As the nostalgic boom shrinks back, the upfront scene will expand slightly, also by those wanting to crossover into a fresher scene.

The nostalgic scene consists of a few thousand, the current scene consists of a few hundred.

The nostalgic scene is about enjoying the past. The upfront scene is about shaping the future.

Well put Andy

this seems pretty honest to me. But its never as clear cut as this, there are simply loads of punters who would refuse the stand in either or both camps.

I have to agree Geese, This has been debated on here many times, and the same comments repeated over and over.

It's horses for courses as they say, and as was mentioned earlier Kev Roberts looks after the couple of times a year oldies crowd very well, others are looked after by the likes of nights such as the Grumpy soul, USOS, Move On, and many others.

Somebody has already mentioned that no amount of threads, comments, renaming, has so far changed anyones opinion, and I believe that to be the closest to the truth comment so far!

Each thread regarding oldies vs upfront seems to be just an excuse for the same people to trot out the same arguments in response for someone who obviously hadn't done their homework on a venue saying they had a crap nigh, for whatever reason!

I enjoy oldies Soul Nights, and find them to be more of a social thing than serious music appreciation, I go to niters that don't play tired worn out oldies, such as Burnley, to hear different/new tunes to me/underplayed.

So I think it's just a case of picking whats right for you, when it's right for you, and that's what matters, not that someone thinks I'm stagnating the scene because I dared to go to a few oldies soul nights through the year!

just drop the word NORTHERN and let people make their own decisions

if they go out regularly and have any clue about what different djs play they will know what and where to expect it

if they don't then tough

thats not people disappearing up their own arses, that is just people knowing what they like and who plays it

Why should the term "upfront" be used? I don't think upfront is a very good term to describe what is being played. I don't consider myself an upfront DJ either. I just play or try and play records that 95% of the other DJ's are not playing, I try and play something different, something forgotten and if I get hold of something unknown then great. I try and use a bit of imagination and not follow the flock.

IMost of the negative comments I see towards the so called "upfront" seem to come from the oldies crowd, why don't they just stick to the oldies if they don't like what others are playing? There are more than enough venues catering for their needs. Leave those who want to listen to something different to do what they want.

HI CHALKY,

If you do not want the genre of music you play at Lifeline etc being called "upfront" then what would you personally call it?. I am not being confrontational here but just wondered.I

Most of the negative comments I see towards the so called "upfront" seem to come from the oldies crowd, why don't they just stick to the oldies if they don't like what others are playing? There are more than enough venues catering for their needs. Leave those who want to listen to something different to do what they want.

This sounds like someone being very protective regards his part of the big picture which is the soul scene. I can understand and sympathise with your post on this chalky but to be honest i have heard this works both ways.

If you go to either an upfront/rare/underplayed event or a northern oldies night, with a closed mind as regards what you personally like then you will come away dissapointed and probably disilussioned all becuase your expectations were not met and you did not read the small print which indicated what sort of music would be played.

THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE BEAST!

regards ROY

Couple of general comments on Derby....

Did see a few people who regularly come on here all supportive of newies, upfrount is best etc spending most of their time not in the Darwin room, only to troup in with thier mate when they were DJing and then leave again !!!!. I'm don't want to labour this point, but it does get me down. So often the people on here that bang on about wanting something different, are nowhere to be seen when events or rooms are put on trying to do just that. Maybe be it's because they weren't booked to DJ or their mate wasn't, I don't know. But why be so vocal, then so weak in support ?

One of the most often heard complaints here is not enough variation, or rooms where everything is played. That was what happened in the Darwin room. Now we have people complaining the line up was too diverse. Some people will never be happy.

Listen to all the other DJ's who played in there until I had to leave as Malayka was very ill, nice variation, well programmed by each of DJ's

I didn't go on trying to prove anything or crusade or play a midtempo set etc, just played what currently interests me, I think people will like and will keep the mix of people in the room happy.

Grey Imprint - Do you get the message

Tornadoes - Won't you forgive

Chuch Cockerham - Have I the right

L.C. Steels - Losin boy

El Corols Band - Chick Chick

Don Varner - Tear stained face

Mamie Galour - No right to cry

Young Divines - Ain't that sharp

James & Truittn - Whats wrong with it

Trey J's - I found it all in you

Florence Trapp - Love came into my life

Carbon Copies - Just don't love you

Guitar Ray - You're gonna wreck my life

Larry Davis - I've been hurt

James Dockery - My faith in you

Sir Joe - Nobody beats my love

Fabulous Apollos - Dtermination

John Edwards - How can I go on without you

Moments - You said

Arthur Prysock - I was a boy

Donnie Jacobs - Proud man

Charles Mintz - Running back

Camaros - Were not too young

Chymes - Wrong crowd

Plus a few more

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by Dave Thorley

Of course Chalky is protective,he loves his soul music in whatever form.

The problem with labelling,such as "upfront" is that if you wander from the oldies path,which is safe and comfortable,many of the tunes could be unknown.There lies the problem.Not that they are "crap" .

Makes me wonder how back in the Wigan days,alot of these guys managed, with the turnover of records,coping with unknown tunes then.

Does it matter what it's called..

I know which DJs I like, and those are the venues I attend.

Why make it so difficult?

Couple of general comments on Derby....

Did see a few people who regularly come on here all supportive of newies, upfrount is best etc spending most of their time not in the Darwin room, only to troup in with thier mate when they were DJing and then leave again !!!!. I'm don't want to labour this point, but it does get me down. So often the people on here that bang on about wanting something different, are nowhere to be seen when events or rooms are put on trying to do just that. Maybe be it's because they weren't booked to DJ or their mate wasn't I don't know. But why be so vocal, then so weak in support ?

One of the most often heard complaints here is not enough variation, or rooms where everything is played. That was what happened in the Darwin room. Now we have people complaining the line up was too diverse. Some people will never be happy.

Listen to all the other DJ's who played in there until I had to leave as Malayka was very ill, nice variation, well programmed by the each DJ's

I didn't go on trying to prove anything or crusade or play a midtempo set etc, just palyed what currently interests me and I think people will like and keep the mix of people in the room happy.

Grey Imprint - Do you get the message

Tornadoes - Won't you forgive

Chuch Cockerham - Have I the right

L.C. Steels - Losin boy

El Corols Band - Chick Chick

Don Varner - Tear stained face

Mamie Galour - No right to cry

Young Divines - Ain't that sharp

James & Truittn - Whats wrong with it

Trey J's - I found it all in you

Florence Trapp - Love came into my life

Carbon Copies - Just don't love you

Guitar Ray - You're gonna wreck my life

Larry Davis - I've been hurt

James Dockery - My faith in you

Sir Joe - Nobody beats my love

Fabulous Apollos - Dtermination

John Edwards - How can I go on without you

Moments - You said

Arthur Prysock - I was a boy

Donnie Jacobs - Proud man

Charles Mintz - Running back

Camaros - Were not too young

Chymes - Wrong crowd

Plus a few more

Dave ,quite a few people were in the foyer area.Chatting/buying etc.Some may have wandered into the main room,but generally seemed to be in and out of the Darwin.Mind you,i didn't arrive till 12.00.

Back to "tags",i think underplayed has gone thru a little of this recently.At one time it was ok,nowadays anything goes.One man's underplayed is another mans oldies i suppose.

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by KevH

HI CHALKY,

If you do not want the genre of music you play at Lifeline etc being called "upfront" then what would you personally call it?. I am not being confrontational here but just wondered.I

Most of the negative comments I see towards the so called "upfront" seem to come from the oldies crowd, why don't they just stick to the oldies if they don't like what others are playing? There are more than enough venues catering for their needs. Leave those who want to listen to something different to do what they want.

This sounds like someone being very protective regards his part of the big picture which is the soul scene. I can understand and sympathise with your post on this chalky but to be honest i have heard this works both ways.

If you go to either an upfront/rare/underplayed event or a northern oldies night, with a closed mind as regards what you personally like then you will come away dissapointed and probably disilussioned all becuase your expectations were not met and you did not read the small print which indicated what sort of music would be played.

THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE BEAST!

regards ROY

The flyers for Lifeline say Rare Soul, that is what it is a Rare Soul Scene. Lifeline is advertised as the DJ's playing the very best in Rare, obscure, forgotten and underplayed soul music. Even though the policy is clearly stated on the flyer we still get complaints.

Personally I don't go anywhere with a closed mind, I've been around long enough to know from the promoter and from the DJ's what to expect. If I go to an oldies night I expect oldies and I don't complain......I also read what the flyer says and what is said on forums such as this. I know full well what sort of night I will be getting music wise.

I suppose I am being protective but shouldn't we all be a little protective about something we care so much about and put a lot of time and effort into?

What gets me though is people complaining when they clearly don't know what they are complaining about or complaining when they clearly know what sort of night it is they are going to.

Why should the term "upfront" be used? I don't think upfront is a very good term to describe what is being played. I don't consider myself an upfront DJ either. I just play or try and play records that 95% of the other DJ's are not playing, I try and play something different, something forgotten and if I get hold of something unknown then great. I try and use a bit of imagination and not follow the flock.

I love Northern Soul, Rare Soul, Modern Soul or whatever soul you want to call it, but I've no wish to go out and hear the same records today I first heard nearly 30 years ago no matter how good they are, and by and large they are good, better than many that are played under the banner of "rare" "upfront" blah blah blah. Did all those who have returned to the scene in the mid 90's and by and large changed it into a retro scene, hearing the same stuff they heard at Wigan and nothing like the scene before they returned, listen to the same top 40 every week whilst they had forgotten the scene existed? No I doubt they did. So why should this scene remain stuck in a time warp when there is so much good music out there. I personally can't see what pleasure other than social can be got listening to the same records every week, it would bore me to death.

Most of the negative comments I see towards the so called "upfront" seem to come from the oldies crowd, why don't they just stick to the oldies if they don't like what others are playing? There are more than enough venues catering for their needs. Leave those who want to listen to something different to do what they want.

That about sums it up for me. Stafford, Shotts, Soultown (Mexboro, Blackburn), Parr Hall, Loughborough, Top Dog Kool Kat (Chesterfield) etc etc and all those nighters in the 80s / 90s followed the same course as Matts club outlined earlier and we never considered these nighters as anything other than Northern Soul. I never throught we were the upfront or rare or underplayed scene for one minute. NS pure and simple.

This current Nostalgia scene has in my view departed from what NS is about. It was never about listening to 200 odd records only and looking back to 'better days' with misty eyes was it? That's not what I bought into anyway.

I think a reason for this is that there are a hell of a lot of people on the Nostalgia scene who dipped there toe in for a couple of years in the 70s, left the scene and have come back with a list of criteria from a time they loved; informed by their limited experience. I have no problem if that's what floats their boat but it seems to be them that see us as those who have departed from the path.

Going back to my first dayer at the Notts Palais Dec 78. 30 of us met up in the Man and Space in Eastwood to then jump on the Trent Bus to Nottingham - newbies as well as those who have been around 2 or 3 years. The bus stopped at Alfreton before us and both floors were full. Cut forward 2 years and I was on that bus on my lonesome. not a soul fan to be seen. seriously, all had dropped off in 2 years.

Well now they are back for the odd local night and they have this attitude that anything outside of the 200 records they know is not Northern Soul - and amazingly they are almost in denial that they left the scene.."I've been into soul since blah blah blah" yet they spent 2 decades playing darts and doms in the local miners welfare.

Why they can't like me when I left the scene for most of the 90s just say I wanted to do something else? This continues to puzzle me.

Personally Lifeline to me is Northern Soul - pure and simple!

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by Byrney

or complaining when they clearly know what sort of night it is they are going to.

I love baked beans me.

Been eating them every weekend for the last 30 years.

Anyways, I go the shop to buy some, and major dilemma, no baked beans in stock this weekend!

Then I see this tin of baked beans mixed with little sausages!

So I thought, I need to eat some beans this weekend, so I'll give them a go......paid me money and went straight home to eat them.

I ate one sausage and spat it out....it was horrible....it was covered in bean sauce, but tasted nowt like beans!

Can't for the life of me understand why would anyone put those horrible little sausages in a tin of beans.....

So, I went straight back the shop and demanded my money back, not before having a good old rant at the girl on the till for selling me them.....especially cus she knows I love baked beans, as I said, I buy them every week!

She says it's clearly stated on the tin that sausages were in there, but as I pointed out, they taste nowt like beans, so they shouldn't be in there!

Anyways, I'm now telling everybody I know how horrible these little sausages are....makes me feel so much better about it.

I love baked beans me.

Hi Tezza,

The rare room was based around 60's and early 70's though nothing was set in stone.

Cheers Phil

No problems from me mate..........suppose people thought oh here he goes again lol......not at all, sorry for any misconception on my part.

l was most definately not complaining that the line up was to diverse merely pointing out that from my experience it was to diverse to maintain a flow.......l have been corrected on this and happy to be so atvb tezza

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by gordon russell

I didn't go on trying to prove anything or crusade or play a midtempo set etc, just palyed what currently interests me and I think people will like and keep the mix of people in the room happy.

Grey Imprint - Do you get the message

Tornadoes - Won't you forgive

L.C. Steels - Losin boy

El Corols Band - Chick Chick

Trey J's - I found it all in you

Carbon Copies - Just don't love you

Just picked a few from Dave's playlist and If this is what you call "crap" then wtf a DJ has to do to 'please' is beyond me.

As for oldies, upfront, rare, etc - tomato, tomatoe! The point Chalky made about a broad umbrella is correct and necesary to keep life in the old bird..

Greg.

Beans means Heinz of course, Tescos and Asdas own tend to be a little hard.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

beans.bmp

I love baked beans me.

Been eating them every weekend for the last 30 years.

Anyways, I go the shop to buy some, and major dilemma, no baked beans in stock this weekend!

Then I see this tin of baked beans mixed with little sausages!

So I thought, I need to eat some beans this weekend, so I'll give them a go......paid me money and went straight home to eat them.

I ate one sausage and spat it out....it was horrible....it was covered in bean sauce, but tasted nowt like beans!

Can't for the life of me understand why would anyone put those horrible little sausages in a tin of beans.....

So, I went straight back the shop and demanded my money back, not before having a good old rant at the girl on the till for selling me them.....especially cus she knows I love baked beans, as I said, I buy them every week!

She says it's clearly stated on the tin that sausages were in there, but as I pointed out, they taste nowt like beans, so they shouldn't be in there!

Anyways, I'm now telling everybody I know how horrible these little sausages are....makes me feel so much better about it.

I love baked beans me.

We know you like beans Mace.

We know you like beans Mace.

Whatevers happening here...just knock it off!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWblMMZ0jKU

Not a big fan of baked beans to be honest.

Heard you like a little sausage now and again though...........touché !

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by Mace

Here's a true story that I've been dying to tell, and this thread is as good a place as any, and it sums up the 'parallel scenes' for me...

A female friend told me this - she's been attending Northern nights since the 70s, mainly an Oldies fan but not close minded.. and it made her cringe.

Whilst at a local 'oldies' do she was approached by a woman in her 50s wearing a circle skirt etc, who complimented her on her dancing.

She got chatting to this woman, and was told that it was the first Soul night that she had attended and that her friend had told her about Northern, and she was planning to visit her first Weekekender (Skeg) but only ... cue muted trumpet... wahwahwaaah....after her friend had shown her how to dance 'Northern'..

In a nutshell it's full of middle aged Divs, who are aware that it is a 'sociable' scene, and think that they are taking a dip in the fountain of youth by singing along to Lynn Randell.

And for that reason I'm out.

The flyers for Lifeline say Rare Soul, that is what it is a Rare Soul Scene. Lifeline is advertised as the DJ's playing the very best in Rare, obscure, forgotten and underplayed soul music. Even though the policy is clearly stated on the flyer we still get complaints.

Personally I don't go anywhere with a closed mind, I've been around long enough to know from the promoter and from the DJ's what to expect. If I go to an oldies night I expect oldies and I don't complain......I also read what the flyer says and what is said on forums such as this. I know full well what sort of night I will be getting music wise.

I suppose I am being protective but shouldn't we all be a little protective about something we care so much about and put a lot of time and effort into?

What gets me though is people complaining when they clearly don't know what they are complaining about or complaining when they clearly know what sort of night it is they are going to.

HI CHALKS,

Sorry if the above reply felt like it was been made directly at you. I was just trying to generalise about peoples expectations of events.

Yes i would expect you and many others to be a little protective of your part of the soul scene because of your commitment ,time and passion for soul music, but please dont join the us and them brigade as that particular club needs dibanding asap.

Must visit Lifeline soon as i have not been since the days of Sheridans.

ROY

Beans means Heinz of course, Tescos and Asdas own tend to be a little hard.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

HI MARK,

What a superb invention. My two favourite foods combined in one tin.

Just like being at an oldies night and the dj then plays Joseph Webster. BLISS.

ROY

here,s my take on things...

as someone who loves upfront , rare, underplayed, whatever term you want to use...but also attends oldies venues as-well,

I notice that more and more middle aged people .week by week, year by year , get into the " northern soul " as we know it.these are people, who at the age they are, find themselves with time on there hands at the weekend, be-cause their children have now grown up, left home .whatever, and through the big media world that we live in now, remember its not an underground scene any more.dip there toes into this soul melting pot, like it, like the motown that comes with it, like the oldies cos that's all they know, that's what they have heard. on a CD somewhere..some people, used to live it many years ago, get back into it,ect ect ect.

So..you have a general consensus of folk that just want to go out, have a drink, dance like no ones watching , dont care about labels , don't care about whether its a real one, dont care if its on a CD. and whether we like it or not they make up 60% of the scene , could be more. I would not like to hazard a guess

Then ,,and this is the part I don't understand..there are a general few , who like rare soul. but don't like upfront nighters, they don't like the music, beggars belief,You have to be open to a certain amount of change, and have an ear for the undiscovered stuff, its still out there, I know. Having said that, what I do find is many a rare record being played in a oldies venue, so it is getting across .slowly and surely. if they like it, they will eventually dance to it.as I have said time and time again. its an ever evolving soul scene. ever turning and changing.sometimes for the good, but sometimes for the bad, IMO most big promoters will want to make money at a nighter so will always go for oldies in the main room, be-cause they know they can fill it that way.It cost a lot of dough to put a nighter on, you gotta make it pay, we have a perfect up front niter, called Life line, it should be packed to the rafters, by all accounts, and sometimes I dont always like what's played there all the while, however I have had to learn that I cant have my cake and eat it all the while.

It seems to me that the finger always seems to get pointed at the so-called 'upfront' promoters and venues as having a negative attitude towards northern soul and an arrogant and scornful view of the oldies crowd and oldies in general, and as being the destroyers of northern soul.

I just don't think that's true.

Maybe it'll make more sense if I explain my own experience...

When we started Move On it wasn't because we thought we were doing something new or different, it's because we wanted to return to the values of the scene in the past, namely seeking out new sounds, playing forgotten and rarely played oldies and expanding the idea of what constitutes northen soul.

We were considered an 'upfront' and underplayed venue, but personally I think we just played northern soul music and ran it in the best traditions of a northern soul night. For me everything we played either was, or had the potential to be, northern soul. We never once thought 'northern is crap lets play funk' or something like that. It was more, 'what can we try next that gets a good reaction and has the right sound for a northern soul crowd?' Adam was always playing me stuff and i'd say 'not dancable'. For me it always had to be dancable (i love dancing) and usually uptempo, so the myth of mid-tempo dirges at upfront nights wasn't true for us either. We experimented, but never compromised on quality, we believed in everything we played.

We also played plenty of oldies. Most of our crowd were long time northern fans who'd been around for decades, so it was impossible to pass anything already known as a newie. What we did do is played a lot of forgotten and rarely played oldies, the sort of stuff that had been played a couple of times and then dropped, not because it was crap, but because that's what the scene was like at one time. Many a time Eddie Hubbard or someone equally respectable and knowledgable came up and said they had what we'd played but had never heard it out and it was great to hear it getting plays. We were all about rarely played quality, uptempo dancable northern soul (of whatever genre).

So running a so-called upfront night, is (in my humble opinion) what the northern soul was once about and should be about again. I've got no problem whatsoever with oldies nights, nighters and with people listening to their favourite tunes from when they were seventeen to the exclusion of everything else, it's just not what I remember this scene was about when I signed up and it's surprising and saddening to me that it seems to be what the majority want thesedays.

Hope this makes sense.

well put exactly the same reasons for us starting the Greatstone

mark

Couple of general comments on Derby....

So often the people on here that bang on about wanting something different, are nowhere to be seen when events or rooms are put on trying to do just that. Maybe be it's because they weren't booked to DJ or their mate wasn't, I don't know. But why be so vocal, then so weak in support ?

One of the most often heard complaints here is not enough variation, or rooms where everything is played. That was what happened in the Darwin room. Now we have people complaining the line up was too diverse. Some people will never be happy.

Yeah I undertand this Dave. Had exactly the same thing with Groovesville that Andy runs.

Steve

FFS Len, lock this thread before Dazdakin and Wiggyflat arrive

lol - Hi Mace, I was in the loft at the weekend and came across a 'Wollaston Rythm and Soul' Club flyer from 1989 with you as the guest - Made me laugh!

I've only just been able to log on as I've had computer / work trouble, so am still obsorbing this thread...It's Nina's birthday today aswell, but this is far more important! lol.

Len.

lol - Hi Mace, I was in the loft at the weekend and came across a 'Wollaston Rythm and Soul' Club flyer from 1989 with you as the guest - Made me laugh!

I've only just been able to log on as I've had computer / work trouble, so am still obsorbing this thread...It's Nina's birthday today aswell, but this is far more important! lol.

Len.

Hi Len.....even funnier is the fact that you have posted this up and spelled RHYTHM incorrectly once again....I will never forget the banner you handmade cus when I arrived at your house you proudly hung it up to show me and I pointed out you had mispelled RHYTHM as RYTHM and I'm sure you had to paint a little black H above it

Please tell me that I never imagined that, cus way too much of my past is bleary at the best of times, but whenever I see you, your name or anyone mispell RHYTHM, that banner comes to mind!

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by Mace

I don't usually post on these kind of threads because I feel there is no point but seeings as Saturday has been mentioned and I was there I thought hey ho.

I was in there all night and I don't recall any latin being played in the Darwin Suite (it's not my bag so I certainly would have remembered). What did get played was mainly a solid mix of cracking 'oldies' for want of another term (they are all 'old' ffs) and top early 70s. Even Sam played a predominately 60s set with the odd 70s thrown in.

If I go somewhere and the music doesn't do it for me - I just don't go again. Simple.

We know you like beans Mace.

he farted at burnley and in 55 years on this planet that was the foulest fart from any of gods creatures that l have ever smelt :lol:

Edited September 19, 201113 yr by gordon russell

I don't usually post on these kind of threads because I feel there is no point but seeings as Saturday has been mentioned and I was there I thought hey ho.

I was in there all night and I don't recall any latin being played in the Darwin Suite (it's not my bag so I certainly would have remembered). What did get played was mainly a solid mix of cracking 'oldies' for want of another term (they are all 'old' ffs) and top early 70s. Even Sam played a predominately 60s set with the odd 70s thrown in.

If I go somewhere and the music doesn't do it for me - I just don't go again. Simple.

I was there 4 and a half hours, I never heard any Latin. You played a great set Joan as well as Dave Thorly, and Ted Massey a credit to the rare scene.

Cheers Billy

Adam and Chalky, Spot on.

Timbob, I didn't hear anything you describe.

Carms, I didn't hear any of those in your list.

Tez, No.

Len, Numpty! (Hope you're gonna pick up all the worms)

Hi John...Um, yeh point taken...Can I still have my lift to Burnley?....Will I still be allowed in?!!!

Len.

I was there 4 and a half hours, I never heard any Latin. You played a great set Joan as well as Dave Thorly, and Ted Massey a credit to the rare scene.

Cheers Billy

It was good to see you Billy!

Dave played a great set. If you are reading this Mr Thorley - what was the second to last record you played?

I don't usually post on these kind of threads because I feel there is no point but seeings as Saturday has been mentioned and I was there I thought hey ho.

I was in there all night and I don't recall any latin being played in the Darwin Suite (it's not my bag so I certainly would have remembered). What did get played was mainly a solid mix of cracking 'oldies' for want of another term (they are all 'old' ffs) and top early 70s. Even Sam played a predominately 60s set with the odd 70s thrown in.

If I go somewhere and the music doesn't do it for me - I just don't go again. Simple.

I wasn't there, so shouldn't really comment....but should imagine Black Sugar 'Too late' was probably played by Sam or Arthur (pretty sure they have both been playing it out recently), and unless Dave Thorley sneaked a latin track in his set that would be that, as they say.

A couple of tracks over a full night at most......

God forbid!

I wasn't there, so shouldn't really comment....but should imagine Black Sugar 'Too late' was probably played by Sam or Arthur (pretty sure they have both been playing it out recently), and unless Dave Thorley sneaked a latin track in his set that would be that, as they say.

A couple of tracks over a full night at most......

God forbid!

think it was an acetete Dave did tell what it was but cant remember Charles Mintz was last

It was good to see you Billy!

Dave played a great set. If you are reading this Mr Thorley - what was the second to last record you played?

hi joan i thought it was an excellent track what dave played 2nd to last record billy

Well I thought the whole night in the Darwin Suite was brilliant.

Good mix of DJ's and the mix of tunes.

And like others I can't recollect any Latin being played.

Liked the new instrumental that Sam played - Hitchhikers strutting ?

And always good to see the usual suspects.

Hi Len.....even funnier is the fact that you have posted this up and spelled RHYTHM incorrectly once again....I will never forget the banner you handmade cus when I arrived at your house you proudly hung it up to show me and I pointed out you had mispelled RHYTHM as RYTHM and I'm sure you had to paint a little black H above it

Please tell me that I never imagined that, cus way too much of my past is bleary at the best of times, but whenever I see you, your name or anyone mispell RHYTHM, that banner comes to mind!

:( B*llocks!, B*llocks!, B*llocks! tis true and I REALLY concentrated this time! lol

Len.

I am with Winnie on this.

Maybe time for the upfront folk to cut their ties with the northern oldies scene

Very good point Steve but think it's a bit back to front.

Maybe better if the Northern classic punters cut their ties with the rest of the Soul scene & leave us be.

After all their scene is more based around a dancable beat & includes quite a lot of pop songs that 'sound like Soul'.

None of that on the rare & underplayed, modern, r&b scenes etc.