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£878 for a 70's pressing

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Like A Rolling Stone - Milton Wright - Satiron   - £878 on Mr Manships auction!!

Sellers are trying to sell great condition original records and can't get a sale.  Then someone pays this crazy price for a record that never got a USA release!

 It was in sales boxes for decades for very little money, then Butch plays it in his spot and look what happens! 

It was a UK Northern Scene special product, pressed up for the other side "I Belong To You" in  the mid 70's. 

The buyer might as well have it on a Carver, as having it like this!

I know it's not John's fault what these crazy people are willing to pay, but if they wait another few weeks it will probably be available for £10!

Edited by solidsoul

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No doubting the quality of the soul record though.

 

 

I always liked the record way back in the 70's, when it was just a great soul record on the other side of  "I belong to you"

Someone has paid a lot for Major Lance on the same auction, but if it gets booted next week they will still have a very desirable original of "You Don't Want Me No More" on Okeh.

If "Like A Rolling Stone" gets booted next week, what will this Satiron copy be?  An old 70's pressing, that is not a respected original with collectors, and the price will plummet!

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I always liked the record way back in the 70's, when it was just a great soul record on the other side of  "I belong to you"

Someone has paid a lot for Major Lance on the same auction, but if it gets booted next week they will still have a very desirable original of "You Don't Want Me No More" on Okeh.

If "Like A Rolling Stone" gets booted next week, what will this Satiron copy be?  An old 70's pressing, that is not a respected original with collectors, and the price will plummet!

Yep, get all that mate - the weird world of soul collecting.

Just saying its a quality record.

P

Edited by Peter99

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Can anyone please explain  how Epitome of sound finished almost a GRAND  i have sold original promos for £160 pounds not so long ago.

Who ever  is the winning bidder wants to go and seek advice from his doctor :ohmy:

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Always loved the instrumental 'like a rolling stone' (more tan 'the gallop' actually) but the vocals on 'I belong to you' always sounded wrong IMHO. The singer only follows the music melody that is the PLAIN and FULL-ON instrumental track/tune. The vocal sounds like an overdub record that doesn't really fit. Plus he is more of a crooner singer than soulful to say the least...

But who is that singing really ? Is it Milton Wright ? I don't know his stuff to tell if it could be him or not. I know there were threads about this odd 45 one here before and theories about who was behind that "voice" but don't remember and assertive answer.

I always had my doubt that this was recorded at the same time as the instrumentals (1968) but rather made-up and recorded FOR the northern scene... somewhere in 1977 when issued as this 45 on Satiron while the instrumentals were just re-issued some time before on the Grapevine 45 in 1976...

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SOUL BOWL MANUFACTURED 300 COPIES LEGALLY AND PAID OLLIE MCLOUGHLIN HIS ROYALTIES.AS FAR AS I KNOW IT'S MILTON WRIGHT AND I STILL HAVE THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPE IN MY GARAGE.WE DIDN'T RECORD A VOCAL OVER THE TRACKS—THEY WERE ISSUED EXACTLY AS OLLIE RECORDED THEM .WE SOLD THESE BEFORE WE STARTED THE GRAPEVINE LABEL .—JOHN ANDERSON (20/8/2015)

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and Epitome of Sound nearly a grand FFS!

Plus   Celeste Hardie, Christine Cooper and Major Lance all going for a damn sight less.........  all better records and all rarer   weird IMHO.

Edited by Kegsy

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Always loved the instrumental 'like a rolling stone' (more tan 'the gallop' actually) but the vocals on 'I belong to you' always sounded wrong IMHO. The singer only follows the music melody that is the PLAIN and FULL-ON instrumental track/tune. The vocal sounds like an overdub record that doesn't really fit. Plus he is more of a crooner singer than soulful to say the least...

But who is that singing really ? Is it Milton Wright ? I don't know his stuff to tell if it could be him or not. I know there were threads about this odd 45 one here before and theories about who was behind that "voice" but don't remember and assertive answer.

I always had my doubt that this was recorded at the same time as the instrumentals (1968) but rather made-up and recorded FOR the northern scene... somewhere in 1977 when issued as this 45 on Satiron while the instrumentals were just re-issued some time before on the Grapevine 45 in 1976...

 

SOUL BOWL MANUFACTURED 300 COPIES LEGALLY AND PAID OLLIE MCLOUGHLIN HIS ROYALTIES.AS FAR AS I KNOW IT'S MILTON WRIGHT AND I STILL HAVE THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPE IN MY GARAGE.WE DIDN'T RECORD A VOCAL OVER THE TRACKS—THEY WERE ISSUED EXACTLY AS OLLIE RECORDED THEM .WE SOLD THESE BEFORE WE STARTED THE GRAPEVINE LABEL .—JOHN ANDERSON (20/8/2015)

 

 

here's an article on here feat milton wrights very own take on things from 2008

 

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here's an article on here feat milton wrights very own take on things from 2008

 

So  the very person who not only wrote the song, but sung the damn thing as well, has stated he did not get paid a penny. And just to rub it in, some bloke has just paid over £800 for it. Smells to me like the situation where OV Wright's head stone was in fact purchased with help from his fans, won of whom does not live far from me. We all know this sort of thing was common within the music industry, but It would be nice just once in a while to hear of a happy ending ie the seller and buyer getting together and sending 15% to Milton, as they obviously have deep pockets. Or give it to his sister Betty to pass it on.  I am no expert on publishing etc, but who should have paid him? .   

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Not up on publishing/rights etc..but i have always been led to.believe that artistes didn't get paid for demo/promo copies..and as ive only ever seen demos of this could this be why Milton did'nt receive any money plus if there was only 300 copies made how much was he expecting...bet there's plenty of tunes especially rare soul records where artistes didn't get paid a penny even if they wrote and sung on the record but it doesn't mean the records are definately illegal there could be a loophole label owner /producer etc have used it still goes on today..just a thought...don't slaughter me for it..

Dave L

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Not up on publishing/rights etc..but i have always been led to.believe that artistes didn't get paid for demo/promo copies..and as ive only ever seen demos of this could this be why Milton did'nt receive any money plus if there was only 300 copies made how much was he expecting

Dave L

I can understand an artist not being paid for demos on a record that would then go on to be issued nationally.

This was never intended for general release and was only pressed up in limited quantity specially for the Northern scene. To me it's no different to the other licenced pressings done in the 70s or the previously unissued releases Kent are doing now. There are some people paying daft money for them. I didn't even buy Milton Wright when it was available because it wasn't an original. I was only 18 at the time and even then I knew better.

Edited by grouse

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I've known the "I Belong To You" track for a while, but until recently had never heard the other side "Like A Rolling Stone" which I think is fantastic, and in now a favourite of mine. The way I see it £800+ is a steep price, but with only 300 copies its way rarer than some other 45's that command a large price tag and seem to come up for sale every other week.....

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and Epitome of Sound nearly a grand FFS!

if they had asked for EOS on one of the various forums/groups and offered a couple of hundred they would probably have had a few offers of a copy.  It isn't even rare.

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OK the next one to go daft will be David Rhodes - Hung up in Mid air. only 200 or so copies made Ian promotes it Butch plays it and the whole world goes ballistic and it ends up on Jms auction for 700 quid. The scene really has become a joke.

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So  the very person who not only wrote the song, but sung the damn thing as well, has stated he did not get paid a penny. And just to rub it in, some bloke has just paid over £800 for it. Smells to me like the situation where OV Wright's head stone was in fact purchased with help from his fans, won of whom does not live far from me. We all know this sort of thing was common within the music industry, but It would be nice just once in a while to hear of a happy ending ie the seller and buyer getting together and sending 15% to Milton, as they obviously have deep pockets. Or give it to his sister Betty to pass it on.  I am no expert on publishing etc, but who should have paid him? .   

What like all these dj's paying PRS fees to the artists whose records they play you mean?  They write down every record they play and then send a percentage of so that the artist can benefit...hey why not give all artists a share of the money when you sell a second hand record, despite the artist having already been paid for that session 50 years ago.  So OV Wright was buried without a headstone, who's fault is that, he had 30 years of recording contracts and sold a lot of records...

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So  the very person who not only wrote the song, but sung the damn thing as well, has stated he did not get paid a penny. And just to rub it in, some bloke has just paid over £800 for it. Smells to me like the situation where OV Wright's head stone was in fact purchased with help from his fans, won of whom does not live far from me. We all know this sort of thing was common within the music industry, but It would be nice just once in a while to hear of a happy ending ie the seller and buyer getting together and sending 15% to Milton, as they obviously have deep pockets. Or give it to his sister Betty to pass it on.  I am no expert on publishing etc, but who should have paid him? .   

We don't know what the contract was at the time of recording.  He may well have been paid a one off fee.  Artists usually have to pay studio time, pay for musicians etc.  He may well have owed Ollie for all that.  Even though he wrote it I doubt he owned the masters so Ollie would be entitled to do what ever he liked. And just how much do you think Milton Wright should be paid for a one off 300 press which I doubt amounted to very much at all back in the 70's.  There would be no royalties for a start as it wasn't up for general release.  Neither are royalties due on prices achieved at auction for a second hand record.  Reality is often very different to what people believe.

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What like all these dj's paying PRS fees to the artists whose records they play you mean?  They write down every record they play and then send a percentage of so that the artist can benefit...hey why not give all artists a share of the money when you sell a second hand record, despite the artist having already been paid for that session 50 years ago.  So OV Wright was buried without a headstone, who's fault is that, he had 30 years of recording contracts and sold a lot of records...

I thought that it was the responsibility of the music venue or Radio Station to pay PRS fees & not an individual DJ ???....

Best Russ 

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I thought that it was the responsibility of the music venue or Radio Station to pay PRS fees & not an individual DJ ???....

Best Russ 

Well the dj's going to have to present them with his playlist...

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I am not an expert on these things at all, so excuse me if I have got this completely wrong, but doesnt the venue or Radio Station pay a set fee regardless ?....just interested really, now that the point has come up, I for one would certainly do what you suggest Pete, if that is the case, both as an occasional DJ & promoter.

Russ

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No idea Russ it's just a case of where lines are drawn.  We know damn well that even if we did offer the playlist that any royalties would only go into a pot and the named artist wouldn't get a cent

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Anywhere that plays music, clubs, shops, workplaces, should have a license.  The venue is responsible for that and has to fill in the necessary.   Not sure if set lists have to be done these days.  Maybe by radio stations and professional DJ's?

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In the USA  Radio stations pay  ASCAP and BMI a blanket license fee.  

UK wise here's the breakdown   ( culled from internet )

If you know a little about music copyright, you may know that each time a piece of music is played to an audience, a royalty payment is due. In the UK, there are three main bodies that are responsible for collecting royalty fees from radio stations and apportioning the money to their members. They are as follows:

 

  • PRS (Performing Right Society). Body that collects royalties in respect of music played by radio stations for artists and composers. More details at www.prsformusic.com
  • PPL (Phonographic Performance Ltd). Body that collects royalties in respect of music played by radio stations on behalf of record companies. See www.ppluk.com
  • MCPS (Mechanical Copyright Protection Society). Body that collects royalties
    in respect of music reproduced for use by radio stations. MCPS library music is used as backing music for jingles and music used in adverts. See www.prsformusic.com

Most music radio stations own a ‘blanket’ licence, that allows them to play whatever music they wish, in return for an annual licence fee (based on audience size and revenue). To allow the likes of PRS to apportion the revenue, PRS asks each station to return a detailed summary of what was broadcast, via a series of random “sampling periods”, where all music played including jingles, advert music, and even the presenter singing, gets logged and returned to PRS for analysis.

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In the USA  Radio stations pay  ASCAP and BMI a blanket license fee.  

UK wise here's the breakdown   ( culled from internet )

If you know a little about music copyright, you may know that each time a piece of music is played to an audience, a royalty payment is due. In the UK, there are three main bodies that are responsible for collecting royalty fees from radio stations and apportioning the money to their members. They are as follows:

 

  • PRS (Performing Right Society). Body that collects royalties in respect of music played by radio stations for artists and composers. More details at www.prsformusic.com
  • PPL (Phonographic Performance Ltd). Body that collects royalties in respect of music played by radio stations on behalf of record companies. See www.ppluk.com
  • MCPS (Mechanical Copyright Protection Society). Body that collects royalties
    in respect of music reproduced for use by radio stations. MCPS library music is used as backing music for jingles and music used in adverts. See www.prsformusic.com

Most music radio stations own a ‘blanket’ licence, that allows them to play whatever music they wish, in return for an annual licence fee (based on audience size and revenue). To allow the likes of PRS to apportion the revenue, PRS asks each station to return a detailed summary of what was broadcast, via a series of random “sampling periods”, where all music played including jingles, advert music, and even the presenter singing, gets logged and returned to PRS for analysis.

Its not actually audience size its actually calculated on the size of the room in sq feet. I know this because when I was involved in the management of an Indian restaurant they wanted their fees and we had to submit the size of the room the music was being played in not the number of customers!

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Its not actually audience size its actually calculated on the size of the room in sq feet. I know this because when I was involved in the management of an Indian restaurant they wanted their fees and we had to submit the size of the room the music was being played in not the number of customers!

There is different criteria for different establishments, clubs, venues, restaurants etc.

For a restaurant according to the PRS site....

 

How is your licence fee calculated?

We have a dedicated tariff covering restaurants and cafés.

Licence tariffs depend on:

  • seating capacity
  • how you play music (eg. in the background or DJs and live performances)
  • if music is played on hold

For clubs....

Licence tariffs depend on:

  • the size of your venue
  • the type of club you're running
  • how you play music (eg. in the background, DJs and live performances)
  • if you play music on hold

DJs or karaoke jockeys may need a separate ProDub licence to play music at your venue. Please note, where they don’t have one, it may render your licence invalid.

 

All the license types can be found here http://www.prsformusic.com/USERS/BUSINESSESANDLIVEEVENTS/MUSICFORBUSINESSES/Pages/default.aspx

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­­­

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Choosing cynicism over compassion is easy, but the fact is if what Milton claims is true then I find it rather sad. I know full well that royalties have no connection with second hand goods. I was simply alluding to other good will gestures that have happened over the years between fans and artists. You obviously know precious little about one of the greatest southern soul singers, as he passed in 1980, so how the hell could he have been recording for 30 years, It was 15. Besides hundreds of artists sold lots of records, but got jack shit because of either managing issues, being tied to contracts and unable to get out, or simply not getting paid what they were owed and not having enough money to fight a case.So could you please not make comments like that regarding a headstone for one of the great soul singers.

 

 

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What like all these dj's paying PRS fees to the artists whose records they play you mean?  They write down every record they play and then send a percentage of so that the artist can benefit...hey why not give all artists a share of the money when you sell a second hand record, despite the artist having already been paid for that session 50 years ago.  So OV Wright was buried without a headstone, who's fault is that, he had 30 years of recording contracts and sold a lot of records...

I'm not sure that this is right Pete, I talked to Sam Moore a few years back and he said he received no royalties from the airplay of the Sam & Dave tunes over a 40 year period. He said the contracts they were conned into were OK while they were making hit records but once the hits had dried up, he could only earn decent money from relentless touring. All the airplay cash bypasses the artists. Given how many times a day Soul Man gets played on the radio somewhere in the world, somebody is making a few quid. I also guess OV's capacity for earning from touring was a bit time limited.

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We don't know what the contract was at the time of recording.  He may well have been paid a one off fee.  Artists usually have to pay studio time, pay for musicians etc.  He may well have owed Ollie for all that.  Even though he wrote it I doubt he owned the masters so Ollie would be entitled to do what ever he liked. And just how much do you think Milton Wright should be paid for a one off 300 press which I doubt amounted to very much at all back in the 70's.  There would be no royalties for a start as it wasn't up for general release.  Neither are royalties due on prices achieved at auction for a second hand record.  Reality is often very different to what people believe.

You are correct in saying that we don't know what was in the contract, but I doubt very much that it said you will get f*** all. you are also correct regarding royalties due on such a very small press, as it must be peanuts. I was simply highlighting the morality and principle of the whole thing. I know full well royalties have nothing to do with second hand records, just making light of the situation given that other good will gestures have happened over the years between artists and fans. I would have thought royalties on masters come in to play when a record is re -issued, But has little to do with original sales. So what's this general release comment?. Just because it did not appear in woolworths does not mean they were given away!

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Just to clear up any confusion, the person who owns the copyright on a sound recording, is the person that paid for the recording of it in most circumstances. If an artist went in the studio and paid for the recording, the studio time, the musicians, engineer etc, then they would own their recordings and could do with them what they wanted. 99% of recordings remain un-recouped, i.e. they don't bring in enough money to cover the costs of recording, studio time, engineer, mastering, statutory payments, manufacturing, artwork, distribution, marketing and promotion. The other 1% do OK and make everyone money generally. The percentage chance of anyone making decent money from recorded music is ridiculously slim at the best of times. Just saying....

Ian D :)

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A slightly different  talking point about the Milton Wright record which I hope is of interest.. I gather it is a recent play by Butch, previously overlooked. And yet when I looked it up on YouTube, I already knew it really well. I knew most of the words.I have never owned it so assume someone was playing it in the 80s / 90s. So it's an oldie?

Edited by son of stan

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Your'e right it has been played out and about years ago..butch isn't the first to play this by a long chalk....i wouldn't call this record a boot..just a record with some dispute as to the singer/writer not being paid could easily be a misunderstanding in the contract...not being a case of someone delibarately ripping the other off..they sound like they got on with each other before with past recordings..like someone said before how much would you expect of a 300 run...

J

Edited by grappersoul

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You are correct in saying that we don't know what was in the contract, but I doubt very much that it said you will get f*** all. you are also correct regarding royalties due on such a very small press, as it must be peanuts. I was simply highlighting the morality and principle of the whole thing. I know full well royalties have nothing to do with second hand records, just making light of the situation given that other good will gestures have happened over the years between artists and fans. I would have thought royalties on masters come in to play when a record is re -issued, But has little to do with original sales. So what's this general release comment?. Just because it did not appear in woolworths does not mean they were given away!

very few principles or morals when it comes to record buyers and sellers.  Does anyone who sells at large profit give something to the artists involved?  Doubt it very much.

By general releae I mean to the general record buyers, the pop market. It was made for a specialist market, even more specialised back then and was bought via mail order.  I would imagine any royalties from the deal would amount to very little.  Again what did Milton owe Ollie for any session costs, probably more than any royalties. Not sure what they were sold at back then, not sure what the deal was between John and Ollie. 

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Regarding Milton Wright, I can't quite work out from above when it was recorded but wouldn't he have been under contract at TK around the time of its release?

Regarding club DJ's writing down what they played, didn't Dave Godin used to bang on about this in his column in the 70s?

Regarding artist contracts,  standard practice in Jamaica was they only got a one off fee for singing on a record. This explains why they all had records out at the same time on separate labels and why they all keep touring until they drop dead. Did this go on in US? I don't know but wouldn't be surprised.

Finally, regarding artists not getting royalties for radio plays, does mean that those tales you hear of, for example, Noddy Holder living off the cheques that drop thru his letterbox every year for 'Merry Xmas' are utban myths?

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...Soz, one more I forgot to add..

 

Does the chorus of the Milton Wright record really include an instruction to 'wear a creepy crown' ??? And if so, wtf does that mean? (Maybe he was trying to be Dylanesque in keeping with the title?) :-)

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