I have only been seriously collecting original soul 45's for just over two years and in my opinion certain 45's seem to be for sale nearly every other week meaning they are quite common and always fetch a pretty decent price....

One of the main tunes seems to be Dearly Beloved by Jack Montgomery. A great tune and there always seems to be one for sale.

I realise that in some cases demand for a tune reflects the price, but my question is what is the most common (as in amount around) that fetches a very high price? Just interested to find out!

On 30/07/2016 at 09:46, hullsoul said:

AC Reed - My Babys Been Cheating Cool

I was told it charted,if that's true how many thousands does that take?Ended up selling for 3 figures?Thought I'd over paid when I got mine for £7,everyone else had a paid a fiver

Cheers

Martyn

yeh pat brady had loads of em..£5 or always in his  5 for £20 section.... you could always find 5 records in there tho and i did with gusto,,,velvet hammer..lorraine rudolph etc

On 30/07/2016 at 09:46, hullsoul said:

AC Reed - My Babys Been Cheating Cool

I was told it charted,if that's true how many thousands does that take?Ended up selling for 3 figures?Thought I'd over paid when I got mine for £7,everyone else had a paid a fiver

Cheers

Martyn

has anybody mentioned ruby andrews just loving you

Edited July 31, 20168 yr by dave pinch

What about Al Williams. I who am nothing. La Beat or Parma. Plenty of these about or in collections. Cost you a couple of grand these days. 

But must admit to being biased as it's my favourite all time record.

Steve

13 minutes ago, dave pinch said:

yeh pat brady had loads of em..£5 or always in his  5 for £20 section.... you could always find 5 records in there tho and i did with gusto,,,velvet hammer..lorraine rudolph etc

it was in every dealers boxes. Guy got stock of Lorraine Rudolph, it was his cover up.  He'd sell one and another would come from under the table.

 

16 minutes ago, dave pinch said:

has anybody mentioned ruby andrews just loving you

Good shout. What about Donni Burdick's Bari Track, Jimmy Fraser on Columbia and more recently Pinkertones on Queen G.

17 hours ago, FRANKIE CROCKER said:

Tricky question to answer. By common, do you mean in total or regularly up for sale? What does 'expensive' mean these days? Bill Bush on Ronn is a four figure record these days but with 40 or so on Popsike, evidently obtainable but hardly common. Curtis Lee on Mira with 40-50 on Popsike but selling for a few hundred. Masqueraders on Wand, bigger numbers and selling for more. Others that are regularly up for grabs and at prices that make you think twice are Lonnie Lester on Nu Tone, Maurice Williams on Deesu, Charades on MGM, Ann Haywood on Hondo, Jimmy Fraser on Columbia and the list goes on. Jack Montgomery, as already mentioned, possibly takes the prize with over 300 on Popsike at a costly outlay. All the records we're chasing are relatively scarce, even if there are hundreds in collections, as many will never come up for sale in the lifetime of the owner. Factor in private sales of the records above and you have some sizeable numbers stowed away but they are still very rare compared to Beatles, Elvis etc. What I need to know is which common record will be the next mega-expensive one so I can stock up on it now???

I've been into soul for a long time, but only recently started collecting original vinyl... I'm too young to have any knowledge about what was available in abundance back in the day.... I was interested to find out what soul 45's that fetch three figures and above are actually available in larger amounts than some may think, but fetch a price due to their quality or demand....

6 hours ago, Soulskate70 said:

I've been into soul for a long time, but only recently started collecting original vinyl... I'm too young to have any knowledge about what was available in abundance back in the day.... I was interested to find out what soul 45's that fetch three figures and above are actually available in larger amounts than some may think, but fetch a price due to their quality or demand....

Some are more numerous than others but mainly tucked away in collections so hard to quantify. A good example would be Donni Burdick's Bari Track which was a Wigan Anniversary freebie and soul-pack staple back in the late 70's but now fetching £750: Popsike evidence suggests occasional sales in recent years as sellers cash in their bargain acquisitions. The Adventurers on Compass is another ex-cheapie that fetches big bucks due to quality and recent interest. Today a copy of Rufus Lumley on Holton has sold for a sum ten times greater than the going rate of £25 when widely available twenty years ago. The list is endless but includes many classic 70's spins such as Rubin on Kapp which pops up monthly, Epitome of Sound on Sandbag, Invitations on Dynovoice and Major Lance's You Don't Want Me No More on Okeh: the first three are on eBay right now and all four crop up regularly.

You only have to look at the thread on old 'soul packs' to see other examples ....

B&S had 100's of copies of Darrell Banks "I'm The One Who Loves You" & Margie Joseph "One More Chance" at 10p each and sent them out in soul packs every week in 1972/73.  They had 100's of other 45's for just pence that now sell for large amounts. 

On 29/07/2016 at 13:19, chalky said:

Much of the stock of Shrine 45s were lost in a fire at the distributors during the riots. 

On 29/07/2016 at 12:23, bbrich said:

I have wondered how rare 'Shrine' records really are?  surely they must have sold a fair few as they went on to produce I think 19 records, if not they would have gone bust earlier...

Much of the stock of Shrine 45s were lost in a fire at the distributors during the riots. 

 

I had sort of assumed (wrongly) that Shrine wouldn't have rec'd any money for the stock that was destroyed in which case 1964 to 1968 was a long time to fund a loss making business. I would be keen to understand a bit more about how the whole business model worked with the labels/artists/distributors etc...    

 

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 14:55, bo diddley said:

The Cashmeres on HEM always seems to go for high amounts considering how often it comes up.

Also, as mentioned in many previous threads, Frank Beverly on SASSY and Ronnie Forte on TARX were imported in decent amounts in the 70's and were sold by folks like Pep in their shop for not much more than boots/pressing's of the current "in vogue" tunes of the day. These 2 are always sort after and go for good money considering the copies about. Having said that, it's cheaper to pay up for the records you want rather than convert a De Lorean and add a Flux Capacitor. 

 

When I was dealing records with tats, in 2 years hunting in  their home city we found 8 Cashmere's, funny thing was none were Ex or Mint ! all been pre-owned down T'ghetto  in Washington !

47 minutes ago, Rob Wigley said:

When I was dealing records with tats, in 2 years hunting in  their home city we found 8 Cashmere's, funny thing was none were Ex or Mint ! all been pre-owned down T'ghetto  in Washington !

Yes, most copies seem to have been "well used"!

Perhaps that part of the reason for JM getting such a good price for that nice copy he auctioned a couple of years ago. Was is about £1,800?

I can't tell you the business model for Shrine Records BUT the fact that most stock was lost in the April 68 riots can't be disputed.

Many black businesses were torched in the riots, record shops & warehouses alike were totally burnt out .... 

 

Channel 3 on Dakar. Numerous copies every month show. Still sat on dealers 'online' shelves with 'daft' prices stuck on 'em.  Go back in another 6 months.... they'll still be there! LOL!

Regards,

Dave 

Just now, Dave Moore said:

Channel 3 on Dakar. Numerous copies every month show. Still sat on dealers 'online' shelves with 'daft' prices stuck on 'em.  Go back in another 6 months.... they'll still be there! LOL!

Regards,

Dave 

Issue probably about right Dave and worth a few bob of anyone's money, the flip is fantastic which you don't get with the demo

Kev

On 29/07/2016 at 18:20, chalky said:

Anyone who has been around records, selling, collecting etc knows there is decent quantity of Jack Montgomery. I must have seen a copy for sale from a different seller every week for years. But I think you know that yourself and know what is meant by quite common. 

A "decent quantity"? But you can't hazard a guess at how many? And how many of those are in any where near acceptable condition? How many are the same "VG" copy turning up again as the guy who paid £250 for his copy realises it isn't worth a fraction in reality and once the euphoria of owning a battered copy of DB gradually fades, as the crackles and pops get louder and louder as days go by,  it dawns that satisfaction sadly wasn't guaranteed and tries to pass it off to the next guy - at the same price of course. 

Just because  there's a copy of a record for sale on a regular basis doesn't necessarily mean its "common".  Especially when you add in the all-important  condition factor (eg anything over "excellent"). Dearly Beloved is a rare record by anyone's standards.  The term "rare" in record collecting covers a wide range of "rarity". Usually you would prefix it with an adjective: super-rare, mega rare, very rare, fairly rare, quite rare or rare-ish for more common items, etc. The problem is  a tendency to use "rare" to only describe records that are very rare. 

  

Edited August 1, 20168 yr by maslar
typo

4 hours ago, Roburt said:

I can't tell you the business model for Shrine Records

Andy Rix can, he did a very interesting interview with William Edward Singletary that clarified a lot regarding the demise of Shrine records and subsequent loss of so much of the stock (titles) at once while stored in Waxie Maxie's.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Roburt said:

 

17 minutes ago, simon t said:

Andy Rix can, he did a very interesting interview with William Edward Singletary that clarified a lot regarding the demise of Shrine records and subsequent loss of so much of the stock (titles) at once while stored in Waxie Maxie's.

 

 

 

 

search and article option takes you to  a few shrine related articles by andy r and others

https://www.soul-source.co.uksearch/?q=shrine&type=cms_records5

 

better 

https://www.soul-source.co.uksearch/?q=shrine&type=cms_records5&sortby=relevancy&search_in=titles

Edited August 1, 20168 yr by mike
added

Their are loads of cheap items far more difficult to find than overplayed oldies or the new hotbox exclusive!. These cheap records though become instant 100 quiders when someone states Butch played it last week or seen it for £100 on Xs site! Its all bullshit based on very little empirical evidence if any at all. Unless you absolutely know how many were pressed and how it was distributed then what actually is rare? How do you define rare? Whose definition has more credibility? Its all sheer speculation propped up by wild speculative statements and other dubious information. Im glad someone is asking the question!

heres an example of one that seems to be difficult to pick up but its not in demand so nobody evaluates if its rare or not!

Karon Rondell - Ive been down on Columbia! Its not the greatest dancer in the world but Ive heard worse!

Just now, Ernie Andrews said:

Their are loads of cheap items far more difficult to find than overplayed oldies or the new hotbox exclusive!. These cheap records though become instant 100 quiders when someone states Butch played it last week or seen it for £100 on Xs site! Its all bullshit based on very little empirical evidence if any at all. Unless you absolutely know how many were pressed and how it was distributed then what actually is rare? How do you define rare? Whose definition has more credibility? Its all sheer speculation propped up by wild speculative statements and other dubious information. Im glad someone is asking the question!

heres an example of one that seems to be difficult to pick up but its not in demand so nobody evaluates if its rare or not!

Karon Rondell - Ive been down on Columbia! Its not the greatest dancer in the world but Ive heard worse!

Amen !!!

JM's book 'million dollars of soul' has a rareity grading system e.g. 1 star = less than 10 known copies , 2 stars = less than 25 known copies etc...   perhaps dealers/sellers should adopt a uniform system when describing records similar to the grading system.  On the other hand maybe it is impossible to know apart from certain very well known and extremely rare records. Anayway speculating about records, their rareity etc.. is probably part of the fun and certainly more interesting than the work i am supposed to be getting on with right now!

40 minutes ago, bbrich said:

JM's book 'million dollars of soul' has a rareity grading system e.g. 1 star = less than 10 known copies , 2 stars = less than 25 known copies etc...   perhaps dealers/sellers should adopt a uniform system when describing records similar to the grading system.  On the other hand maybe it is impossible to know apart from certain very well known and extremely rare records. Anayway speculating about records, their rareity etc.. is probably part of the fun and certainly more interesting than the work i am supposed to be getting on with right now!

I think it's the other way round ie four stars is rarest. For the most part, record prices reflect rarity and quality combined so a system like the one Manship's book uses is not necessary for general use. That said, the book benefits from the scarcity scale used despite the inaccuracies in places.

Record prices no longer reflect rarity in most instances. 

9 minutes ago, FRANKIE CROCKER said:

I think it's the other way round ie four stars is rarest. For the most part, record prices reflect rarity and quality combined so a system like the one Manship's book uses is not necessary for general use. That said, the book benefits from the scarcity scale used despite the inaccuracies in places.

is it not subjective when quoting how many copies are out there ?

Kev

1 hour ago, chalky said:

Record prices no longer reflect rarity in most instances. 

eg Gene Woodbury on Del Val

     £800!!!!!!!!

15 hours ago, mike said:

search and article option takes you to  a few shrine related articles by andy r and others

https://www.soul-source.co.uksearch/?q=shrine&type=cms_records5

 

better 

https://www.soul-source.co.uksearch/?q=shrine&type=cms_records5&sortby=relevancy&search_in=titles

Many thanks for pointing me to these - interesting stuff !!!

2 hours ago, kev cane said:

is it not subjective when quoting how many copies are out there ?

Kev

Depends, if you've been buying and selling, been around the record bars for many years you get some idea what is out there, not exact but some idea. There will always be copies not known about but for many of what we collect we know what is rare or not and in many cases a good idea of quantity or not. Some will always know more than others so in that respect it could be subjective. 

Just now, chalky said:

Depends, if you've been buying and selling, been around the record bars for many years you get some idea what is out there, not exact but some idea. There will always be copies not known about but for many of what we collect we know what is rare or not and in many cases a good idea of quantity or not. Some will always know more than others so in that respect it could be subjective. 

Hi Chalky..theres so many unknown gems in the hands of these collectors who still do not do the internet thing and expose all their heat!

 

Took that from well known collector in Northern California, these guys play their cards very close  their chests

Kev

 

5 hours ago, kev cane said:

Hi Chalky..theres so many unknown gems in the hands of these collectors who still do not do the internet thing and expose all their heat!

 

Took that from well known collector in Northern California, these guys play their cards very close  their chests

Kev

 

For sure Kev, same over here, we don't really know what is tucked away in collections.  I was referring more to the scene and what we think is out there.  We know what is rare and what isn't. 

Chalkster

Precisions on Drew, always the same price and always as many copies for sale as any other 20 quid record.

Exits on Gemini, local hit on at least two label variations. Always a handful of copies around if you want to pay the steadily rising price.

22 hours ago, Ernie Andrews said:

Their are loads of cheap items far more difficult to find than overplayed oldies or the new hotbox exclusive!. These cheap records though become instant 100 quiders when someone states Butch played it last week or seen it for £100 on Xs site! Its all bullshit based on very little empirical evidence if any at all. Unless you absolutely know how many were pressed and how it was distributed then what actually is rare? How do you define rare? Whose definition has more credibility? Its all sheer speculation propped up by wild speculative statements and other dubious information. Im glad someone is asking the question!

heres an example of one that seems to be difficult to pick up but its not in demand so nobody evaluates if its rare or not!

Karon Rondell - Ive been down on Columbia! Its not the greatest dancer in the world but Ive heard worse!

This is exactly why I started this thread.... I tend to mostly buy cheaper, lesser known records and have no desire to spend £500 on a tune available on every high street northern compilation, and has been played since 1974. I'm not a DJ so only buy original vinyl I want to listen to at home. I tend to watch sales quite closely, and you do start to get an idea of records that seem readily available... My definition of "common" Is a record that seems to be available in abundance - no matter at what price.... My definition or "rare" is a tune that rarely is available for sale and very hard to get hold...

Just now, Soulskate70 said:

This is exactly why I started this thread.... I tend to mostly buy cheaper, lesser known records and have no desire to spend £500 on a tune available on every high street northern compilation, and has been played since 1974. I'm not a DJ so only buy original vinyl I want to listen to at home. I tend to watch sales quite closely, and you do start to get an idea of records that seem readily available... My definition of "common" Is a record that seems to be available in abundance - no matter at what price.... My definition or "rare" is a tune that rarely is available for sale and very hard to get hold...

lot of connotations been mentioned previously in this thread, theres records that people don't want to sell, they are keepers, hence they hardly ever come up for sale, then supply and demand becomes the issue, if you want the record bad enough then you have to resort to what you need to do, you have to make an attractive offer, no good saying, "but its only a £40 record" I ain't paying £75, well say goodbye to the record, you ain't going to own it, example I gave earlier, Brothers of Soul "Can't get you off my mind" awesome in my opinion, and a lot of other peoples on Boo or Criss Cross, hardly ever comes up, "I'D be grateful" theres one for sale every week, yet people pay £125-£150 for it, btw, not saying "Can't get you off my mind" is a £40 record, just using figures to get my point over, I think CGYOMM is the rarer record

Kev

 

11 hours ago, chalky said:

Depends, if you've been buying and selling, been around the record bars for many years you get some idea what is out there, not exact but some idea. There will always be copies not known about but for many of what we collect we know what is rare or not and in many cases a good idea of quantity or not. Some will always know more than others so in that respect it could be subjective. 

bit like motors tune though, once you get one you start to notice them everywhere, especially if its something you weren't aware of till you purchased a copy.

14 hours ago, theothertosspot said:

eg Gene Woodbury on Del Val

     £800!!!!!!!!

The poor man's Bernie Williams... Great tune, rarely seen at auction and a DJ must-have all contribute to this high valuation. There is also someone spending BIG money at present winning every pristine classic up for grabs so this may have gone to them QED.

many small labels such as the 45 i'm showing, only 500 were pressed for each release...

many small record companies only made 500 - 600 when they'd press a release, years ago.

there are what, 7 billion people on the planet?
500 - 600 doesn't go very far.

many records are fairly obscure.

Edited August 3, 20168 yr by VinylvilleLA

6 hours ago, FRANKIE CROCKER said:

The poor man's Bernie Williams... Great tune, rarely seen at auction and a DJ must-have all contribute to this high valuation. There is also someone spending BIG money at present winning every pristine classic up for grabs so this may have gone to them QED.

Record was only VG++, so guess that rules out the latter.

15 hours ago, LarsC said:

Precisions on Drew, always the same price and always as many copies for sale as any other 20 quid record.

Exits on Gemini, local hit on at least two label variations. Always a handful of copies around if you want to pay the steadily rising price.

Exits 'under the street lamp' has 4 label variations, 3 from the same pressing plant; 1 promo, 1 yellow and 1 green, plus another green from another pressing plant.

Edited August 3, 20168 yr by tlscapital

1 hour ago, tlscapital said:

Exits 'under the street lamp' has 4 label variations, 3 from the same pressing plant; 1 promo, 1 yellow and 1 green, plus another green from another pressing plant.

Gemini was a label that was split between Cleveland & LA involvement, so I guess they would have had a west coast pressing & an east coast (Ohio ?) pressing.  

 

14 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Gemini was a label that was split between Cleveland & LA involvement, so I guess they would have had a west coast pressing & an east coast (Ohio ?) pressing.  

 

Agreed, but 'under the street lamp' (the best IMHO) is by far the most common from the Gemini stalls (together with the Little Charles 'too much pride') and is the ONLY release from that label to have more than 2 label variations. Where the other releases only had 1 release from the same pressing plant and 3 only had a demo release.

There are numerous huge sellers in the US that people in the rare/Northern soul scene seem to think should cost money. Just the other day on Facebook I saw reference to a Strangeloves record as being 'rare soul'. All the Strangelovers 45s were pressed in quantities of 100,000 or more, I can see an unplayed deadstock copy being worth $5 but that's it. Many people in the US would be happy to give the stuff away (I have), Strangeloves, Winstons "Color Him Father"/"Amen", Castways "Liar Liar", Human Beinz "Nobody But Me", "The Snake", etc, nearly unlimited amounts of decent copies. The posting above about the Precisions "If This is Love" is correct, still 100s of decent playable copies here in the US, an unplayed copy is hard to find but that record must have sold 20,000, maybe as much as 50,000, it was a big seller in several large US cities. 

I suspect that the majority of UK-based folk collect in the broad context of 'the scene' over here so that's what has always been used as a general yardstick. Subjective for sure but 30-40 years worth of knowledge and experience gives you a start. Doubtless, the Internet and, to a much lesser extent, JMs guide(s) have enabled a much broader picture to be built up in that you can determine very quickly what's pretty readily available and what isn't, what's battered and what isn't etc. 

Anyone looking to buy a record without being sure what to pay for it would do well to check Popsike, discogs, SS sales before resorting to big dealer's websites IMHO. If that's where it's at you're going to pay a premium for it.

If you're prepared to do the leg work and go through sales boxes you're always going to increase your chances of a better deal; some things never change!  Better still, back your own ears and don't chase the same records as every bugger else 

Just now, PhilT said:

I suspect that the majority of UK-based folk collect in the broad context of 'the scene' over here so that's what has always been used as a general yardstick. Subjective for sure but 30-40 years worth of knowledge and experience gives you a start. Doubtless, the Internet and, to a much lesser extent, JMs guide(s) have enabled a much broader picture to be built up in that you can determine very quickly what's pretty readily available and what isn't, what's battered and what isn't etc. 

Anyone looking to buy a record without being sure what to pay for it would do well to check Popsike, discogs, SS sales before resorting to big dealer's websites IMHO. If that's where it's at you're going to pay a premium for it.

If you're prepared to do the leg work and go through sales boxes you're always going to increase your chances of a better deal; some things never change!  Better still, back your own ears and don't chase the same records as every bugger else 

 Better still, back your own ears and don't chase the same records as every bugger else 

Can I get an Amen, nail on head Phil, bottomless pit

Kev

3 hours ago, PhilT said:

I suspect that the majority of UK-based folk collect in the broad context of 'the scene' over here so that's what has always been used as a general yardstick. Subjective for sure but 30-40 years worth of knowledge and experience gives you a start. Doubtless, the Internet and, to a much lesser extent, JMs guide(s) have enabled a much broader picture to be built up in that you can determine very quickly what's pretty readily available and what isn't, what's battered and what isn't etc. 

Anyone looking to buy a record without being sure what to pay for it would do well to check Popsike, discogs, SS sales before resorting to big dealer's websites IMHO. If that's where it's at you're going to pay a premium for it.

If you're prepared to do the leg work and go through sales boxes you're always going to increase your chances of a better deal; some things never change!  Better still, back your own ears and don't chase the same records as every bugger else 

An example... Carl Douglas - Lean on Me CBS UK Demo of which I own a mint copy.... Sold on Ebay a while back Ex+ for £18.99. The JM book price states it's price at £50.... The actual website is selling it for £100!!!! It's not exactly in-demand either.......

On ‎03‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 02:26, Frankie Crocker said:

The poor man's Bernie Williams... Great tune, rarely seen at auction and a DJ must-have all contribute to this high valuation. There is also someone spending BIG money at present winning every pristine classic up for grabs so this may have gone to them QED.

Wasn't Gene Woodbury one of those records given away in Soul Packs in the 1970's, the poor man's Ever Again, love it! 

the most expensive common soul records are the ones john manship sells😥

3 hours ago, Bruv said:

Wasn't Gene Woodbury one of those records given away in Soul Packs in the 1970's, the poor man's Ever Again, love it! 

even though something was in a soul pack there might be very few copies.  John A said on numerous occasions it was what he had to hand to clear space or two raise funds, slow sellers or records not en vogue.  So he might have a handfiul of a title, 20 or so copies, that went in packs and subsequently became en vogue and not really turned up.  So what was once a soul pack item isn't necessarily common.

Common records fetching more than they should...Ringleaders, Soul Majestics, Ruby Andrews, Frank Beverley.....

epitome of sound , moses smith , ruby andrews , ring leaders , al kent on rictic

Ringleaders was a soul pack record if not mentioned earlier 

Great thread, found it just yesterday. First one that came to mind was TSU Toronados on Rampart. May have been rare at some point but there's probably a few hundred copies out there by now (with a new one going up on Discogs every week, it seems) and it still sells for 200-300 $/£. Top notch record whatever the case. 

It's probably also a good example of a record that people won't let go of once they have it in their collection - same as with Soul Brothers 6 on Fine, although that one seems to be more scarce overall. 

This is just personal impression from someone who hasn't been at this long, all of that said.. 

Edited June 11, 20195 yr by damian

On 01/06/2019 at 14:04, Chalky said:

Common records fetching more than they should...Ringleaders, Soul Majestics, Ruby Andrews, Frank Beverley.....

Soul Majestics... nailed it.. when I saw that last copy go for $800+ on eBay I just couldn't believe my eyes. 

49 minutes ago, damian said:

Soul Majestics... nailed it.. when I saw that last copy go for $800+ on eBay I just couldn't believe my eyes. 

Funny thing is that when previous cheapies go for a lot of money, they suddenly seem more desirable!