In today's Guardian, there's a discussion on young black Americans producing new vintage-style soul sounds. In it Craig Charles says "The whole Northern Soul scene was white. Some black people who went to those events suffered racism."

I've been going since 1969 and knew Dalbert a black DJ from Wellingborough who was a popular face on our Northants scene and met several other black people over the years. I myself was the only long-haired person among 100+ skinheads at my first nighter, but was welcomed by one girl in particular who said "It's nice to see some weirdos here". It would be nit-picking to argue about the scene being white, as it was overwhelmingly but not exclusively. My experience has always been that people are more than happy to see black people anywhere on the scene and in fact we don't even think in those terms; it's a given.

So where did this quote come from? Was it the Jazzy B TV comment of a few years ago which was just ignorance or have some black people experienced this? It would be ridiculous to think that there had never been racist comments somewhere, some time, but would these have been from people on the scene or attendees who just came along for a beer or some gear? It would be good to have some examples of prejudice or welcoming; particularly from black people or their close friends.

I remember seeing a doc on a racist skinhead in the late 80s early 90s and he said he used to be into northern soul.There's also a lad with a blood and honour t shirt on one of those RSG videos i posted up...he's on there coming through the doors.Bizarre. 

The Northern soul scene / family seems to get these knocks from individuals with very little to back it up with. Its such an easy going scene that we get the odd character come into it to take advantage of the descent trusting people in it .

The number of venues running Northern events each week is vast today , so this Craig C****** comment  is pretty vague and might be in reference to two incidents over 40years and involve people who were not Northern soul fans !! , ( if they ever happened).

in the past ;

I vaguely remember a Northern night near Peterborough where  they were mobbed by skinnheads and got "trashed", late 80ts  i think.     Was anybody there ?

As above , during the scooter rallies in the early to mid 80ts  ,,i remember the NF being present and  trying to recruit and cause unrest in some of the resorts.

At a Great Yarmouth  Rallie  Edwin Star was on stage at Tiffinies ( Allnighter ) in mid song when a Skinnhead walked across the stage infront of him .This caused Edwin to stop singing and approach the Skinhead, saying "hey man nobody walks infront of me on stage while i'm singing" !!!

The skinhead  just screwed his eyes at him and strolled off !!!!  the crowd backed Edwin with cheers and the show was a cracker !!!

That Great Yarmouth Scooter rallie allnighter was a mixed music event, ska ,60ts beat , Soul etc.

 Once i was at the Gaumont in Ipswich watching  the style council , Dee Cee Lee  was on stage singing    when a Skin Head guy shouted some abuse at her !

She finished her act and Mick Talbot got on the mike and said    "Some people ought to get their brain in gear before they open their mouth ! " 

PRICELESS...

The guilty party then left ...

At all of these events the soul fans in attendance backed the injured party " the Black artists"  and  i have never seen a racist incident at an event and i have been to alot !!!

Bad Press..

My brother-in-law was the drummer in a Skin head band called  Vengence, they did a few gigs with Screwdriver another band. They released an album and toured a bit unfortunately the press wrongly associated Vengence with the NF. When he read the false artical in the press he turned around and broke-up the band.....

This kind of false reference can be very damaging.  

Its a shame there isn't some kind of legal body within the Northern soul scene , who could challenge these attacks and protect what is a non racist tolerant scene.

 

regards to all , Frank

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 20159 yr by Bossfourpart1

As a Black person born in Wigan I started going the Casino in 1970 before the Nighters started and I can honestly say hand on heart I have never suffered any racism at any soul venue.. Whilst we all know it was mainly white folk at NS venues there was a few black faces and I never knew any of them to have any hassle

Having said that the FB group "Soul Against Racism" was set up after a Black person was subjected to racism at a venue

The Northern Soul scene is, by and large, very good regarding a lack of racism and other forms of prejudice. Whilst I would agree that its not commonplace on the scene in my experience and not particularly wishing to stir up a hornets nest,in the interests of fairness I'll share one experience of mine with you.

In the early days of Prestatyn weekender,way before Richard & Kev took it over, I was standing in the large Modern Soul room chatting with lots of friends up from London and taking in the great atmosphere of it all. At one point I walked up to the bar to order a round of drinks. At the bar, some little guy sidles up next to me and puts his arm round my shoulder,in what I initially thought was a friendly manner. He then says to me" Ive been watching you walking around talking to all them blacks. You've been going round talking to all the n*****s in this room and people like you make me sick you f*****g n****r lover….." I'm not easily shocked really but I have to say that this kind of "Red Neck" attitude at a Soul event did shock me.  Even though he had obviously been drinking, the Nazi bile he was coming out with must have come from deeply held feelings within. When I took his arm off my shoulder and told him  to go F*** himself he started trying to square up to me all the while talking all kinds of Racist shite  at which point one of his mates appeared and took him off after apologising to me for his mates behaviour. He wasn't a "local" either because I spyed him later on at the gig the following day around the Northern room so he was definitely there for the event. Everyone I told about it was appalled too.

 Obviously,isolated incidents like this can't be portrayed as normal on the scene,but, in the wider context of society,these things do happen . Craig Charles doesn't frequent the Northern Soul scene thats for sure,whether he knows some people who have had unfortunate and unrepresentative experiences on the scene, I wouldn't like to say. Depends whether they ran into the dickhead that I did…….

By the way Ady, really enjoyed Cleethorpes this year, I had a fantastic time.

 Ivor

 

 

 

 As I've previously stated on a thread over Christmas about celebrities professing to be northern soul fans and then being given their own shows to spin the same old cheesy tracks etc, they are only as good as the guys who produce their shows. So although not wishing to stand up for Craig Charles who I personaly think is a complete knobhead, his comments on their being racism on the northern scene were probably put in his mind by one of his shows researchers/producers at the BBC who quoted Jazzie B's now infamous comments from a earlier BBC documentary. At the time of Jazzie B's misguided out burst I compiled a list of some 50 names of West Indian and Asian kids from the Dudley West Midlands area who all at one time frequented the allnighter scene both during and after Wigan.With many of those that did eventually leaving the northern scene moving over to Jazz Funk.

One guy in particular Des Mitchell went on to become a presenter on radio West Midlands for awhile and the last I heard of him he was working for a radio station in Canada. Des's original day job was as a driver for a natural stone company and he used the company's transit van on weekend's to take us to allnighters. On one particular Friday night the company van was in for a service so Des's gaffer lent him his Mercedes Sports so of to Hinkley we went in a Mercedes Sports with a Black guy driving and aload of white kids speeding their tits off in the back ! needless to say the old bill pulled us over several times wanting to know where w nicked the car from, happy days!

Dave

Edited June 20, 20159 yr by Louise

Having said that the FB group "Soul Against Racism" was set up after a Black person was subjected to racism at a venue

That's not how I remember it Fred.

A comment was made by one person in the ladies toilets, who was white. It was overheard by someone else who wasn't part of that conversation, who was also white, and they construed it as a racist comment. That person took offence at the time, and subsequently set up the Soul Against Racism group on FB.

I'm not defending the person who made the comment, they were absolutely in the wrong with both their attitude, and use of words. However, no black person was abused, or even involved in the incident that led to the forming of the FB group. Unless of course you know of another incident.

The last time I heard any racial comments was at Prestatyn year before last and aimed at a wedding party I was with, the comments made by a couple were not passed onto the bride and groom nor the main body of the wedding for fear of people getting very upset .

Is there a digital version of this article?

That's not how I remember it Fred.

A comment was made by one person in the ladies toilets, who was white. It was overheard by someone else who wasn't part of that conversation, who was also white, and they construed it as a racist comment. That person took offence at the time, and subsequently set up the Soul Against Racism group on FB.

I'm not defending the person who made the comment, they were absolutely in the wrong with both their attitude, and use of words. However, no black person was abused, or even involved in the incident that led to the forming of the FB group. Unless of course you know of another incident.

same here don't know if it was at the same venue but a number of girls heard a racist diatribe from a drug fuelled white women in the toilets and the said vile person was taken to one side and soon left the venue ,

Is there a digital version of this article?

 

there's a link  via here

Edited June 20, 20159 yr by mike

 

Edited June 20, 20159 yr by pete mattock

Think I am being misunderstood here.I was not agreeing with what Craig Charles said but with the understandable annoyance about what would seem to many a small thing(as shown by the no of comments on this thread)History should be written by those that were there 

That's not how I remember it Fred.

A comment was made by one person in the ladies toilets, who was white. It was overheard by someone else who wasn't part of that conversation, who was also white, and they construed it as a racist comment. That person took offence at the time, and subsequently set up the Soul Against Racism group on FB.

I'm not defending the person who made the comment, they were absolutely in the wrong with both their attitude, and use of words. However, no black person was abused, or even involved in the incident that led to the forming of the FB group. Unless of course you know of another incident.

Dave I was not party to the incident but like you I know the  Lady and I know she felt it was a racist incident

The Soul Scene is bound to throw up a few racist incidents from time to time but they are very few.. None of my Black friends have had concerns about feeling uncomfortable at venues

Having read the Craig Charles article it was clear it was a throw away comment he had picked up from someone else and was not his personal experience

Been on the scene over 40 years since the early days of Wigan and can safely say there's no substance to the comment made. On the contrary, all people in general have been welcomed  and whilst largely a 'white' scene embracing 'black' music, race has never been an issue. On the contrary, some of the very best dancers have been black and held up as role models, admired by all notably Steve Caesar who I travelled to Cleethorpes with, Pete Rickets of Wolverhampton, Fran Franklin and Vernon to name but a few.

Edited June 20, 20159 yr by FRANKIE CROCKER

Nowt wrong with the Guardian, we'd still have the News Of The World, Tabloid phone-tapping, Andy Coulson and Jonathon Aitken if they'd not been around.

Well these days I'd disagree. Clickbaity and always ready with an inflammatory quote to make poor articles have some vibrancy. They take sponsorship money from the likes of the rockerfellas whilst banging the 1% vs 99%, but its cool to do both, right? Theres a 10,000+ word essay in your opening 5 words. 

Craig Charles - Saville style pastiche DJ (without the yewtree link). Quite why anybody should be listening to him re this is a question in itself. And one that proves the point Im making. 

I think Craig Charles shows the calibre of his intelligence in the quote. 

"The whole northern scene was white. Some black people who went................."

Hmmm, wasn't all white then was it you dummy ?

I was once discriminated against on the northern scene, and it was someone from Blackpool that did it. They said I was from Yorkshire on a flier. Yorkshire ! Bloody Yorkshire!

im a Lancastrian born and bred !!!

Roly Fergerson was to blame Dave honest.  I think you mentioned it once of twice in the next fanzine lol

Whilst I can understand in a way defensiveness against such a generalist statement by Charles, I don't think it should dismissed out of hand.  A black voice on racism should be listened too...Northern was  (still is?) a predominantly white working class scene...and whilst the love of black music would, no doubt, provide a different  demographic, you still get some of the ills of general society at events, particularly when the events are big with many people there...It's never been something I've witnessed..but then I'm a  40 something white guy..so not the best to judge...

Think I am being misunderstood here.I was not agreeing with what Craig Charles said but with the understandable annoyance about what would seem to many a small thing(as shown by the no of comments on this thread)History should be written by those that were there 

I WAS THERE AM STILL THERE 50 YEARS THERE. CRAIG CHARLES WERENT THERE.ILL BE THERE AGAIN TONIGHT TILL 6 am In the morning. BET YOU CRAIG CHARLES IS NOT THERE IM STILL WRITING MY HISTORY AND CRAIG CHARLES WONT GET A MENTION.

CIVILITY COSTS NOTHING BUT MEANS A LOT.

MICK LYONS

Whilst I can understand in a way defensiveness against such a generalist statement by Charles, I don't think it should dismissed out of hand.  A black voice on racism should be listened too...Northern was  (still is?) a predominantly white working class scene...and whilst the love of black music would, no doubt, provide a different  demographic, you still get some of the ills of general society at events, particularly when the events are big with many people there...It's never been something I've witnessed..but then I'm a  40 something white guy..so not the best to judge...

ANY VOICE ON RACISM BLACK ,WHITE , YELLOW OR PURPLE SHOULD BE LISTENED TO IF ITS POSITIVE AND CAN MAKE THINGS BETTER,UNFORTUNATELY SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO CHANGE HISTORY TO SOUND IMPORTANT AS CG. AS DONE IN THIS INSTANT.ITS NEVER BEEN DOWN TO THE COLOUR OF THE MAN ITS THE SOUL OF THE MAN THAT MATTERS. ML .

I don't believe it's been historically racist, far from it infact…..but lets not be naive about today, I have had a number of friend requests from people who profess to be "soulies" or whatever but who also have BNP etc in their "likes". 

That said, I maintain that apart from a few knobs Mentioned before, the ns scene has not historically been racist. Quite the opposite.

 

Edited June 20, 20159 yr by Steve G

I WAS THERE AM STILL THERE 50 YEARS THERE. CRAIG CHARLES WERENT THERE.ILL BE THERE AGAIN TONIGHT TILL 6 am In the morning. BET YOU CRAIG CHARLES IS NOT THERE IM STILL WRITING MY HISTORY AND CRAIG CHARLES WONT GET A MENTION.

CIVILITY COSTS NOTHING BUT MEANS A LOT.

MICK LYONS

that is exactly what i was saying but probably not very well worded

I have never witnessed any racist behavior at any all- nighters, weekenders or soul nights. Most all-nighters I attended since the late seventies always had a few black or mixed race folks in attendance, but I well remember an all-dayer which I think was in the midlands during the early eighties when there was northern and modern in one room with another playing jazz/funk and current black club sounds in another. Sam decided to play Booker Newbury 'Love town' in his modern set, as it had only just got released. This was followed by a rush of black folks from the Jazz funk room to dance to it. I always remembered thinking, it was such a pity there was not more of this cross reference between the scenes. Contrary to one poster on this thread, I have witnessed a lot more black folks at the early jazz/funk weekends than he mentions .At the Caistor weekends back in the late seventies up to a third was normal. Really good people, With several becoming good friends, with one being godfather to my son. Just do not understand how people can stoke up racism on the back of a club culture they know precious little about, and get away with it !.

  

I don't believe it's been historically racist, far from it infact…..but lets not be naive about today, I have had a number of friend requests from people who profess to be "soulies" or whatever but who also have BNP etc in their "likes".

 

Quite a number of people posted outright racists views in "Current affairs" over the years. Coming from that I guess there is racism on the scene, although it's not outspoken.

Craig Charles makes some interesting points. As a coloured kid born in liverpool in 1964 , as I was,he would have experienced the racism inherent in society at the time. Firstly in school then employment and socially and musically.  The clubs ,soulor otherwise,Mardi gras ,Peppermint lounge and cavern{which unuasully had limlted NS  niters with Brian Rae and Billy Butler {the radio DJ!}in the 70s, all had segregation policies towards Afro /carribean british scousers! I well remember travelling wth my "sole " coloured mate many miles tobe turned away from every club with the strict instruction; " Your  OK pal but your mates Not On " ! This was 1966 UK ,the same time in the U.S. Sammy Davis was refused entry to the Sands in Las Vegas while performing there! In 70s clubs racism was more subliminal,understated,but in broader society it was entrenched; aswas sexism and homophobia{ we had koons ,pakis,queers puffs and tarts!] Imagine how a solitary black or asian kid would have felt wanderinginto a casino or Mecca when he was 0.00% of the swarming white masses. Culturally some ethnic groups have simply never gravitated to Northern Soul , they just dont "Dig that Crazy Beat". LOL Johnny

That's not how I remember it Fred.

A comment was made by one person in the ladies toilets, who was white. It was overheard by someone else who wasn't part of that conversation, who was also white, and they construed it as a racist comment. That person took offence at the time, and subsequently set up the Soul Against Racism group on FB.

I'm not defending the person who made the comment, they were absolutely in the wrong with both their attitude, and use of words. However, no black person was abused, or even involved in the incident that led to the forming of the FB group. Unless of course you know of another incident.

100% accurate Dave as regarding how SAR was formed. 

Delbert used to be the DJ and a few other coloured blokes were on the Northants scene early 70,s and there used to be a big colour issue e.g. black + whites, red + browns, green + clears or brown and clears! I used to call my black mate Franie R.I.P, horrible names (ain,t sure if I used racist names but might have) cause he was bigger than me and much harder and always made sure he got the best colours!

I don't believe it's been historically racist, far from it infact…..but lets not be naive about today, I have had a number of friend requests from people who profess to be "soulies" or whatever but who also have BNP etc in their "likes". 

That said, I maintain that apart from a few knobs Mentioned before, the ns scene has not historically been racist. Quite the opposite.

 

I'd also like to get in on the ''There's no racism on the northern scene'' vibe, but to do so I'll need racism defined. Are we just talking about directly racist comments from one individual to another, as in ''You're a co*n'', or the like, is this the guideline that measures racism? Or is it a more far reaching question, does it include political affiliations, or memberships to far right groups? Blacking up? Trying to impersonate the black voice, although I've emphasised black, it could also be racist to try and do comedy Scottish, Irish, Welsh voices etc. I realise that a lot of this will possibly seem trivial to some, which could go some way to explaining the almost universal ''Racism, what racism'', that appears to be the mantra of this particular thread.

So it's possible for me to answer the question accurately, could someone or multiple people if they so wish, define the particular racism we're talking about within the northern scene.  

I can remember going to my first soul do (1979) at the Howard Mallett Club in Cambridge where I grew up. As I walked in with a gang of lads I hung around with then I remember hearing the music thinking what is this sound. I had previously attended mainstream clubs playing 70's pop but was starting to have a preference for soul type sounds. I was last in the group. As I went in there were a crowd of people, I saw a blonde girl staring at me then a leg was kicked out ar me and I heard her state "F off we don't want your sort in here". I smiled and ignored her totally (I often wonder if she is still around and remembers that night) Anyway I didn't venture into the main Northern Room, I went into the Funk room where I felt that the music was more freestyle and relaxed. I was the only Asian looking guy in there, my parents were Anglo-Indian but I had been born and bred here and always considered myself Englsh (then).Part of hanging around with a group of white English lads going out drinking every night was trying to fit in with their crowd. Maybe this is something you might be able to identify with being an impressionable youngster. I remember another incident in the Mallett when a lad called me a Paki so and so. I swore back at him and foolishly raised my fists upon which he somehow managed to grab the biggest heaviest ashtray he could find. He threw it at me and it caught me full in the mouth causing me a massive painful wound and a large scar. I remember Dennis Maxted asking me very politely to leave saying best not to come back for a few weeks, he was a real gentleman was Dennis, the other lad was barred as well. But I did go back several times. As a previous poster stated you have to remember the social context of the times we lived in then, there was scapegoating and racism in the wider society as this was the pre Thatcher era before the world went PC mad. Paki Bashing was a regular thing not so much in Cambridge but this was the era of the "skins" with their Ska and Reggae music but in Cambridge they were all right to us, no trouble at all (another mis-conceived stereotype).

Fast forward to 1992 I was a bit older and wiser attending do's such as Frames in Cambridge and the Ivo etc. Boxing Day at the Black Horse in Leighton Buzzard a Soul all-dayer. My African friend Chris from Leeds was heavily into Soul Music, when we got talking to these guys from Leighton Buzzard, one guy casually said "You Black guys are brilliant dancers" Chris went up the wall and took offence saying his comments were "racist". I remember trying to calm Chris down as the guy had  not meant his remarks in a bad way, he was actually complimenting us. This guy apologized profusely, bought us a drink and we ended up with a bunch of other lads going back to his flat where he showed us his records. Something I will never forget- I wish I hadn't lost touch with those lads as they showed us amazing friendship that I subsequently found again when I got a bit older and had more confidence. The point was you have to show respect to get it. I found Northern Soul a lot later on in life, having already a  deep love of soul music. By now the people on the scene were themselves older and wiser (I myself think a lot of people on the scene then in the 70's whatever their ethnicity sometimes suffered abuse and ridicule from mainstream society e.g dress/culture etc). So maybe having come full circle with the scene in 2004 they were now much more tolerant.

I can only speak for the people I have met on the scene locally and nationally and on here, they show only friendship and respect. Irrespective of your colour - soul music runs through your blood, is the common denominator and I have been very fortunate  in meeting such people as well as finding out so much about the history of the music and its various incarnations. I also think the daft comments made by Trevor and Craig in the media aren't actually relevant to the NS scene and should be regarded as such. If some one wants to be  have racist views that's up to them they're the ones with the problem.  

 

Whilst I can understand in a way defensiveness against such a generalist statement by Charles, I don't think it should dismissed out of hand.  A black voice on racism should be listened too...Northern was  (still is?) a predominantly white working class scene...and whilst the love of black music would, no doubt, provide a different  demographic, you still get some of the ills of general society at events, particularly when the events are big with many people there...It's never been something I've witnessed..but then I'm a  40 something white guy..so not the best to judge...

Perhaps its a good thing Craig Charles made the comment in the national press, i'm reminded of the phrase from Abraham Lincoln (a famous US president who fought for the liberation of the slaves) "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

Those who those who take exception to the comment email the Guardian Editor and enquire why the feel the need to engage the services of a fool in their articles

It would be naive to think racism didn't exist in some people who frequent the scene.  Many were brought up in an era when words and phrases that are now quite rightly considered racist they were once commonplace amongst many and used on a daily basis.  It can be hard for people to get out of their system things learnt early on in life  Those that do have racist tendencies thankfully do not show them at venues and as the scene consists of people from all walks of life it would be foolish to think elements of life do not come with some. 

But the topic in question is about racism at venues and black people suffering racism, did it or does it happen, not are there racist people on the scene of which there undoubtedly are.  I have never witnessed anyone racially abused, insulted or threatened because of their colour.  I'm not saying it hasn't happened, posts on this topic suggestive has but I personally have never witnessed any.   

I'm getting fed up of minor celebrities jumping on the bandwagoning professing to be an authoritative figure about something they no little or nothing about.

100% accurate Dave as regarding how SAR was formed. 

The only bit I missed out was Rich Chorley set SAR up on FB because of an incident seperate to the one I referred to.

It  sounds like maybe Mr Charles has  misinterpreted the scenes lukewarm (at best) reaction towards him as having racist undertones  rather than confronting the reality that he is hopelessly out of his depth in this sphere and people can see straight through him.    In a previous post a few months back i spoke in favour of his enthusiasm on his radio shows , this latest statement ( no doubt inspired by that Jazzy B quote years ago) is just plain and simply wrong .

Typical Gaurdianista crap !!!!!!. The rag is always publishing contentious articles......not read all the comments above BUT in 50 years on and off attending Northern, scratch that, and call it  attending Soul venues, vinyl only and live shows by artists personally have never ever heard racist remarks directed at the minortiy groups also attending and enjoying their/our scene, what is Craig Charles's pedigree anyway, other than being a repoter for the Gaurdian?. 

Personally would'nt want my fish 'n chips served up in a page from the paper

Edited June 22, 20159 yr by ZootSuit

 what is Craig Charles's pedigree anyway, other than being a repoter for the Gaurdian?. 

 

He's not a Guardian reporter, it was a quote

I can remember going to my first soul do (1979) at the Howard Mallett Club in Cambridge where I grew up. As I walked in with a gang of lads I hung around with then I remember hearing the music thinking what is this sound. I had previously attended mainstream clubs playing 70's pop but was starting to have a preference for soul type sounds. I was last in the group. As I went in there were a crowd of people, I saw a blonde girl staring at me then a leg was kicked out ar me and I heard her state "F off we don't want your sort in here". I smiled and ignored her totally (I often wonder if she is still around and remembers that night) Anyway I didn't venture into the main Northern Room, I went into the Funk room where I felt that the music was more freestyle and relaxed. I was the only Asian looking guy in there, my parents were Anglo-Indian but I had been born and bred here and always considered myself Englsh (then).Part of hanging around with a group of white English lads going out drinking every night was trying to fit in with their crowd. Maybe this is something you might be able to identify with being an impressionable youngster. I remember another incident in the Mallett when a lad called me a Paki so and so. I swore back at him and foolishly raised my fists upon which he somehow managed to grab the biggest heaviest ashtray he could find. He threw it at me and it caught me full in the mouth causing me a massive painful wound and a large scar. I remember Dennis Maxted asking me very politely to leave saying best not to come back for a few weeks, he was a real gentleman was Dennis, the other lad was barred as well. But I did go back several times. As a previous poster stated you have to remember the social context of the times we lived in then, there was scapegoating and racism in the wider society as this was the pre Thatcher era before the world went PC mad. Paki Bashing was a regular thing not so much in Cambridge but this was the era of the "skins" with their Ska and Reggae music but in Cambridge they were all right to us, no trouble at all (another mis-conceived stereotype).

Fast forward to 1992 I was a bit older and wiser attending do's such as Frames in Cambridge and the Ivo etc. Boxing Day at the Black Horse in Leighton Buzzard a Soul all-dayer. My African friend Chris from Leeds was heavily into Soul Music, when we got talking to these guys from Leighton Buzzard, one guy casually said "You Black guys are brilliant dancers" Chris went up the wall and took offence saying his comments were "racist". I remember trying to calm Chris down as the guy had  not meant his remarks in a bad way, he was actually complimenting us. This guy apologized profusely, bought us a drink and we ended up with a bunch of other lads going back to his flat where he showed us his records. Something I will never forget- I wish I hadn't lost touch with those lads as they showed us amazing friendship that I subsequently found again when I got a bit older and had more confidence. The point was you have to show respect to get it. I found Northern Soul a lot later on in life, having already a  deep love of soul music. By now the people on the scene were themselves older and wiser (I myself think a lot of people on the scene then in the 70's whatever their ethnicity sometimes suffered abuse and ridicule from mainstream society e.g dress/culture etc). So maybe having come full circle with the scene in 2004 they were now much more tolerant.

I can only speak for the people I have met on the scene locally and nationally and on here, they show only friendship and respect. Irrespective of your colour - soul music runs through your blood, is the common denominator and I have been very fortunate  in meeting such people as well as finding out so much about the history of the music and its various incarnations. I also think the daft comments made by Trevor and Craig in the media aren't actually relevant to the NS scene and should be regarded as such. If some one wants to be  have racist views that's up to them they're the ones with the problem.  

 

That's very interesting and good for you for sticking with it and not letting those early incidents put you off. I think this and other anecdotal replies an PMs show that there may have been the odd incident but few and far between and nothing too serious though I wouldn't condone any at all. I'm sure there's been the anti-Scot, Welsh Irish, European, Southern, even Northern comment over the years too. If anyone has racist views, hopefully not, I'm pretty sure they keep them to themselves. I think that quote has been largely discredited unless something else comes out of the woodwork.

I'd also like to get in on the ''There's no racism on the northern scene'' vibe, but to do so I'll need racism defined. Are we just talking about directly racist comments from one individual to another, as in ''You're a co*n'', or the like, is this the guideline that measures racism? Or is it a more far reaching question, does it include political affiliations, or memberships to far right groups? Blacking up? Trying to impersonate the black voice, although I've emphasised black, it could also be racist to try and do comedy Scottish, Irish, Welsh voices etc. I realise that a lot of this will possibly seem trivial to some, which could go some way to explaining the almost universal ''Racism, what racism'', that appears to be the mantra of this particular thread.

So it's possible for me to answer the question accurately, could someone or multiple people if they so wish, define the particular racism we're talking about within the northern scene.  

Wide open to debate but I'd think it was anybody taking into account negatively your skin colour or ethnic background to any appreciable degree. As you say the Scots and the English may wind each other up a bit in jest and if both parties are cool with it there's no harm done. Southerners get called soft shandy drinkers and Northerners are sometimes perceived as uncouth but they know better and if it's done with a smile and  genuinely no offence taken, it shouldn't be a problem.

This is now going way to deep for my liking some say they have but on the whole it doesn't seem to be an issue at all with the scene. To segregate every colour,country,north/south divide to counties is taking it to the extreme in my honest opinion. apart from a few instances over 40+ years we should be proud of it and look at it as a positive.This is just my humble opinion and think its great to of been part of something which hasn't been tarnished by race/colour or any other discrimination.  

Craig Charles makes some interesting points. As a coloured kid born in liverpool in 1964 , as I was,he would have experienced the racism inherent in society at the time. Firstly in school then employment and socially and musically.  The clubs ,soulor otherwise,Mardi gras ,Peppermint lounge and cavern{which unuasully had limlted NS  niters with Brian Rae and Billy Butler {the radio DJ!}in the 70s, all had segregation policies towards Afro /carribean british scousers! I well remember travelling wth my "sole " coloured mate many miles tobe turned away from every club with the strict instruction; " Your  OK pal but your mates Not On " ! This was 1966 UK ,the same time in the U.S. Sammy Davis was refused entry to the Sands in Las Vegas while performing there! In 70s clubs racism was more subliminal,understated,but in broader society it was entrenched; aswas sexism and homophobia{ we had koons ,pakis,queers puffs and tarts!] Imagine how a solitary black or asian kid would have felt wanderinginto a casino or Mecca when he was 0.00% of the swarming white masses. Culturally some ethnic groups have simply never gravitated to Northern Soul , they just dont "Dig that Crazy Beat". LOL Johnny

As a regular at the Mardi Gras in Liverpool in 1971 there was no segregation policy towards Afro/Carribean or any ethnic minorities that I can recall.  In fact, in 1971 the clientel of the Mardi was made up of predominately Liverpool born Afro/Carribean males and Liverpool born white females. On many occasions, as a small group of white males we were in the minority.

We once got threatened in the toilets and told to leave. On one occasion we were spat on, although we don't know by who, because we didn't see it until we got outside, as it was on our backs.

Was there a problem before 1971, or even after, I don't know. But in general there wasn't a problem, I just think they were isolated incidents, otherwise we wouldn't have gone back week after week.

Billy Butler was the DJ and played some great soul music, which is why we were there.

Many years ago Blues and Soul started a thread about racism which only lasted a couple of issues as it was a non-starter. You can read my comments on this in the 'Letters' page in the relevant issue!!

 

 

i vaguely remember a Northern night near Peterborough where  they were mobbed by skinnheads and got "trashed", late 80ts  i think.     Was anybody there ?

At all of these events the soul fans in attendance backed the injured party " the Black artists"  and  i have never seen a racist incident at an event and i have been to alot !!!

Edited June 23, 20159 yr by pogo paul

I vaguely remember a Northern night near Peterborough where  they were mobbed by skinnheads and got "trashed", late 80ts  i think.     Was anybody there ?

I was at a niter in Peterborough at that time, a gang of local skinheads tried to take over, sieg heiling on the dance floor. Didn't last very long and from what i remember they got kicked to fcuk. Never saw them again.The only racist incident i have witnessed and not soul people. 

I

apart from a few instances over 40+ years we should be proud of it and look at it as a positive.This is just my humble opinion and think its great to of been part of something which hasn't been tarnished by race/colour or any other discrimination.  

Exactly - Although undoubtedly the Soul Against Racism group would have been formed with absolute good intension, I think it a shame it was necessary. The great / unique thing about this funny old Scene of ours, is that it welcomes people from all walks of life.

A very interesting thread this, I can't imagine what it must have been like to be on the receiving end of racism growing up in the 70's (Even just the language that was used back then) I agree with Mick, some things are better left unsaid - meaning, we don't need to give the issue too much oxygen because we all know it has no place on our Scene.

All the best,

Len

Edited June 23, 20159 yr by LEN
Word change

This is what happens when you read dribble from a left wing paper ...............

Considering Craig Charles has done nothing and been nowhere how would he know anything?

Yes, let's all read dribble from right wing rags newspapers, there's no racism there at all is there. Christ on a bike what a friggin' mountain out of a molehill. Craig Charles is hardly your Guardian type is he? Dumb, thoughtless comment, probably based on some heresay incident.

It  sounds like maybe Mr Charles has  misinterpreted the scenes lukewarm (at best) reaction towards him as having racist undertones  rather than confronting the reality that he is hopelessly out of his depth in this sphere and people can see straight through him.    In a previous post a few months back i spoke in favour of his enthusiasm on his radio shows , this latest statement ( no doubt inspired by that Jazzy B quote years ago) is just plain and simply wrong .  

theres a bit of that going on i reckon. 

its got nothing to do with his skin. its playing sweet soul music by arthur conley and wanting adoration for it.

nothing against the tune its actualy one of my childhood favourites.

have you heard him dj live? his persona is way way way overboard. i guess its supposed to make up for his lack of inventiveness with the music.

 

I vaguely remember a Northern night near Peterborough where  they were mobbed by skinnheads and got "trashed", late 80ts  i think.     Was anybody there ?

I was at a niter in Peterborough at that time, a gang of local skinheads tried to take over, sieg heiling on the dance floor. Didn't last very long and from what i remember they got kicked to fcuk. Never saw them again.The only racist incident i have witnessed and not soul people. 

I

Wasn't there but there were a few idiots in Peterborough. Kind of what I was eluding to in my earlier post.  

I have read most of the comments on here and all are very interesting I AM BLACK, My father came to England in 1949 from Jamaica, he first moved to London and then to Leicester. He then moved to the market town where I now live and  was the 1st black settler in this town, in around 1953. My mother joined my father at the same time. My parents used to have regular house party's as they worked and raised our family in the 60's. When I say house party's they were more like blues and reggae clubs as they would buy alcohol and sell from our pantry to the attendees.

Well I am losing the track here but I have attended Northern Soul venues from the age of 13, in 1975, first of all Soul nights, then alldayers then allnighters. I really do not want to start on this subject matter as it will be a 4 or 5 page essay. So I will keep it brief, when I started to go to the venues I travelled with one of my elder brothers and 3 other guys who were also black. The other guys were great dancers my brother could drive that is pretty much how that worked. We fairly lucky as the road on which we lived was a main road that went to many a place and one of the old promoters Terry Samson used to pick 3 of us guys up when he was promoting in the late 70's so quite often we would get into the venues he was running and set them up. I do remember being in the venue and people gesticulating in horror at 3 little black boys being in the venue setting up before them! I also remember walking into an allnighter at Lincoln Drill Hall and one of our fellow 'soulies' throwing a bottle at my head as I was walking in the door with a dj. the bottle hit my shoulder and smashed against the door!

Anyway they are just 2 incidents that go way back when but there have been lots more since and I am sure more to come, I will also say after my brother and the other black guys I travelled with, stopped going regularly in the early 80's I pretty much travelled to most places with my white friends and on occasion they were told by 'big brave men' that they were n***** lovers and that sort of garbage!

Without a shadow of doubt the Northern Soul Scene is not racist but please please do not tell me that nothing has ever happened on our beloved scene because it has and it will again. I have scratched my head on many an occasion and thought does that guy know what music he is actually listening too!

I can honestly say it is probably more the society we live in but I don't think there has ever been one day in my life that I have gone out and 'forgotten' that I am BLACK!!

No person is prejudice or racist until their child brings home their new black partner!!

Edited June 26, 20159 yr by Manfromsoul

Radio One DJ Trevor Nelson hosted a program about Northern Soul where he interviewed amongst others, Keb Darge. I remember seeing Kebby taking Trevor to a ballroom venue and explaining the whole 'nighter experience. My memory's a bit sketchy and sadly I can't remember the 'documentary' right now, but during that interview, Trevor commented on the 'fact' that he was the only black person in the room and I think I'm right in saying, he felt a little uncomfortable about that.

This program would have aired at least 10 years ago....if I can think of the name of the show, I'll come back to the thread.

Yes, i was with them that night and that was more to do with Trevor Nelsons own paranoia and not having gone far beyond London into an exclusively white environment. But, it certainly wasn't an attitude he got from people at the night. Often people forget that, certainly in Grantham my town, there were only a handful of Black families living there at that time. Tony and Virginia who I travelled to nighters with, actually found a sanctuary in nighters because it allowed them to escape the small town racism they suffered in Grantham. That means that 100% of Grantham's young Black population at the time were going to nighters.

That said there are, now, a lot of racist people on the scene, they seem to have grown up, or not, into jingoistic, bigoted daily mail reading haters. And i have often heard comments that I find offensive and hateful, inspired by Britain First type media hate campaigns and a belief that they are being democratic and patriotic in voicing that.

theres a bit of that going on i reckon. 

its got nothing to do with his skin. its playing sweet soul music by arthur conley and wanting adoration for it.

nothing against the tune its actualy one of my childhood favourites.

have you heard him dj live? his persona is way way way overboard. i guess its supposed to make up for his lack of inventiveness with the music.

 

Craig Charles makes some interesting points. As a coloured kid born in liverpool in 1964 , as I was,he would have experienced the racism inherent in society at the time. Firstly in school then employment and socially and musically.  The clubs ,soulor otherwise,Mardi gras ,Peppermint lounge and cavern{which unuasully had limlted NS  niters with Brian Rae and Billy Butler {the radio DJ!}in the 70s, all had segregation policies towards Afro /carribean british scousers! I well remember travelling wth my "sole " coloured mate many miles tobe turned away from every club with the strict instruction; " Your  OK pal but your mates Not On " ! This was 1966 UK ,the same time in the U.S. Sammy Davis was refused entry to the Sands in Las Vegas while performing there! In 70s clubs racism was more subliminal,understated,but in broader society it was entrenched; aswas sexism and homophobia{ we had koons ,pakis,queers puffs and tarts!] Imagine how a solitary black or asian kid would have felt wanderinginto a casino or Mecca when he was 0.00% of the swarming white masses. Culturally some ethnic groups have simply never gravitated to Northern Soul , they just dont "Dig that Crazy Beat". LOL Johnny