Men jailed for ‘fake’ vinyl records scam

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So where does this leave individuals or dealers selling on bootlegs usually described as 'unofficial release' and mostly made some time ago - are they at risk from prosecution at least in theory ?

And what about 'marketplaces' that 'allow' such sales to take place (including soul source.....) ?

5 hours ago, local said:

Why ?

Ian and a few of his pals were caught out a couple of years ago bootlegging about 20 records. These were done specifically to 'fool' collectors as they went to great lengths to copy deadwax markings etc. A few collectors were taken in and bought them before the deception came to light.

There will be a lengthy discussion on here somewhere. You need to search for it.

36 minutes ago, Richard Free said:

No problem for those guys to have lots left over selling at £7,99 each without any vat they would be making a pretty penny if they only sold half of each pressing run . All profit with no artists ,writers royalties etc 

True, some were as much as fifteen quid though, depending on which one, Dusty Wilson 'Can't do without you' and Blind Willie Johnson 'Dark was the night cold was the ground' were both fifteen quid. The ebay blurb described them as being fully licenced reissues.

11 minutes ago, JulianB said:

Ian and a few of his pals were caught out a couple of years ago bootlegging about 20 records. These were done specifically to 'fool' collectors as they went to great lengths to copy deadwax markings etc. A few collectors were taken in and bought them before the deception came to light.

There will be a lengthy discussion on here somewhere. You need to search for it.

The gist of what Ian had said on the subject was that they were special 'replica' pressings that he'd done for special friends only for home use and were to NEVER be offered up for sale. Of course some reneged on the deal and some pressings found their way to the market, possibly some people were taken in as they were very faithful 'replicas'. 

51 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 I have done some more research and Discogs have the black label as released in 2012 (as a re-issue) maybe the original black label is missing from their database

It is entirely possible that the bootleggers were also dealing in legit reissues, perhaps the more expensive of their records were in fact legit, I think someone said they saw boxes of Kents in the photos. Obviously they will only get done for the illegal counterfeits, unless of course there are (as is likely) further charges brought in relation to income tax VAT etc.

So my comment about Dusty Wilson and Blind Willie Johnson might have been talking about legitimate reissues, in which case fifteen quid is around the correct pricing I would imagine.

Yes, they also sell legitimate Outta Sight and Kent product. 

5 minutes ago, Soul16 said:

Yes, they also sell legitimate Outta Sight and Kent product. 

I see, I have a friend who has a considerable collection of 'Outta Sight' 45s as well as Kents. She bought them from Allan Godfrey, she did assure me that the Outtasights were fully licenced reissues. So just for the record are we confirming that these were NOT the counterfeit records being discussed here?

Mind you that doesn't rule out bootleggers making counterfeit pressings of legit reissues...

Minefield!

16 minutes ago, Soul16 said:

Yes, they also sell legitimate Outta Sight and Kent product. 

Not any more.

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 I have done some more research and Discogs have the black label as released in 2012 (as a re-issue) maybe the original black label is missing from their database

It MUST be.  I bought mine in 1965.

12 minutes ago, Steve S 60 said:

Not any more.

From what I can tell, the business continues Steve, albeit with a few members of staff being out of the game for a few months. Hence my deliberate present tense response.

46 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

I see, I have a friend who has a considerable collection of 'Outta Sight' 45s as well as Kents. She bought them from Allan Godfrey, she did assure me that the Outtasights were fully licenced reissues. So just for the record are we confirming that these were NOT the counterfeit records being discussed here?

Mind you that doesn't rule out bootleggers making counterfeit pressings of legit reissues...

Minefield!

Yes, as far as I’m aware, the Outta Sights are genuine, and not counterfeit copies of Outta Sight 45s. 

Counterfeit is arguably the wrong word for the dodgy stuff really. ‘Counterfeit’ suggests they were out to deceive buyers into thinking that they were real. The illegal stuff is clearly not attempting to deceive anyone. Some of the items were tagged as ‘Licensed release’ though, so maybe some were. Your average buyer of such items may not really care too much I guess.

As you say, Minefield!

Many years ago when I had one of the first Terry Callier. Ordinary Joe. Cadet demos I was offered through a third party £750 and a further percentage amount depending on sales to lend my record out. A small part of me was tempted not with the money but at the thought of lots more people would have the chance to get a copy of one of the greatest songs ever laid down on vinyl but i couldn't do it on principle.  

Steve 

On 01/12/2018 at 16:26, mellorful said:

I have quite a few boots in boxes that not played for years, I purchased in ignorance believing them to be okay, a few collectors helped with my education on OVO and reissues etc. The Manship guide to Bootlegs, counterfeits, reissues of Northern Soul 45's helped open my eyes to the number of fakes out there and aided me with identifying the counterfeit vinyl (so thank you JM).  The pressings are in boxes under the roof, I have given a few away as gifts but the recipient is informed that are fakes and the fidelity is sub standard from an original. Selling them would feel wrong. Wondering what have other people done with pressings 

1. chucked mine in a bin years ago, probably 2003 I think - these were records I bought in good faith from record fairs mostly, thinking they were original (off topic I once witnessed a woman angrily chucking loads of what looked like original punk 45s into the Widnes skip, presumably a divorce thing)

2. I do tend now to buy from JM and very well reviewed sellers on Discogs, usually US, I might end up paying more but it's (relative) peace of mind, nothing worse than discovering you bought a boot

 

Unfortunately it appears that some of the dodgy gear featured in the news item including the Prince Philip Mitchel double sider 45 are still for sale on Ebay. There's a guy in the Midlands currently offering dozens of these knockdown counterfeits. You close one operation and another carrys on often with the same stock.

 

Whilst on the subject of boot legs,illegal pressings etc.Tommy Neal on both us Vault and uk vocalion come under that category. 

It also stated on the news article that Godrey had convictions for 100 other offences, wonder what they were? for the same thing?
Also he said that as far as copyright and licencing was concerned, that he "didn't have a clue where to start" Really? Try Google.
More like he thought he could get away with it without having to lay any cash out.

1 hour ago, Firecrest said:

Unfortunately it appears that some of the dodgy gear featured in the news item including the Prince Philip Mitchel double sider 45 are still for sale on Ebay. There's a guy in the Midlands currently offering dozens of these knockdown counterfeits. You close one operation and another carrys on often with the same stock.

 

Is this the one with Bettye Swann "Kiss my love goodbye" on the other side? As i bought one of these from a local record shop ( therefore thought that it was a legit re-issue) for use at home, sold it on ebay when i picked up an original Bettye Swann.

12 hours ago, chalky said:

There is also a chance that the so-called legit looking copies seen, out of sight etc are also fake.  If they are going to press fake originals they will also press fake recent issues, they do appear to be more  credible than a boot.

There have been quite a few suspect 100 Club Anniversary singles turning up recently. there was quite a discussion about it on fb.

On 01/12/2018 at 11:46, David Moore said:

 Bought bootlegs myself in the 70s only way obtain some sounds then  i know it was wrong but no excuse today plenty of legal sources today  if all u want 2 do is listen 2 to the music

Argh!  Just to clarify, this member is a different DM to myself.    

Regards,

Dave 

 

8 minutes ago, Dave Moore said:

Argh!  Just to clarify, this member is a different DM to myself.    

Regards,

Dave 

 

Never meet up with a doppelganger in real life..theres a possibility that one of you could spontaneously combust!

30 minutes ago, Soulsides said:

Never meet up with a doppelganger in real life..theres a possibility that one of you could spontaneously combust!

Think there's 5 Steve Smith's  on here. That's the reason why Winsfordsoul is my user name plus running the nighters there made sort of sense 

I'm Spartacus 

It is very interesting to see if the prices of bootlegs will go up now?

Does anybody know if the Kent (or other modern releases) singles are genuine or bootlegs?

20 minutes ago, Scootboy said:

It is very interesting to see if the prices of bootlegs will go up now?

In the light of the current scandal, I think it'll be more interesting to see if cowboy DJs playing out bootlegs to the paying public comes to halt. It would be nice if Northern Soul could re-align itself to some kind of normality and move away from being the circus that it has become in some quarters. Maybe it's too late though.

Why is it that so many feel the need to buy these bootlegs in any case? 

if the bootlegs dry up then the wanna be djs will just switch to carvers or acetates albeit they are more expensive but still a lot cheaper than originals

2 hours ago, Dave Moore said:

Argh!  Just to clarify, this member is a different DM to myself.    

Regards,

Dave 

 

Which one is real though?

Len 

one word - "c*nts"

17 minutes ago, LEN said:

Which one is real though?

Len 

Apologies dave if people think I m u  I should ve  used  a pseudonym   When I post in future I ll make it clear it's the DM from Stoke on Trent   Unless u r. Also from Stoke lol

I don't think it has been, but apologies if this particular photo has already been uploaded earlier in the thread. A wider view of the boxes.

19 minutes ago, David Moore said:

Apologies dave if people think I m u  I should ve  used  a pseudonym   When I post in future I ll make it clear it's the DM from Stoke on Trent   Unless u r. Also from Stoke lol

LOL!  Not a Stokie mate no.  I wasn't aware of another DM on the site that's all.  I'll now go and take out a new mortgage......  err, what's your DOB and current address?  LOL!  Dave 😉 

 

15 minutes ago, Soul16 said:

I don't think it has been, but apologies if this particular photo has already been uploaded earlier in the thread. A wider view of the boxes.

What is really concerning here is the stacking of the records and boxes

2 things 

A My wife would go mad if I stored stuff like that

B There may be a possibility that the vinyl may warp making them unplayable

14 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

What is really concerning here is the stacking of the records and boxes

 There may be a possibility that the vinyl may warp making them unplayable

They will be ok  There as tough as Old Boots !

22 minutes ago, shinehead said:

They will be ok  There as tough as Old Boots !

But old boots seem acceptable and just part of the scene back in the day to many

2 hours ago, LEN said:

Which one is real though?

Len 

 

4 hours ago, Winsford Soul said:

Think there's 5 Steve Smith's  on here. That's the reason why Winsfordsoul is my user name plus running the nighters there made sort of sense 

I'm Spartacus 

So have we got Dave Moore and Steve Smith boots now aswell, or are they re-presses, licenced, re-issues?

6 minutes ago, Kenb said:

 

So have we got Dave Moore and Steve Smith boots now aswell, or are they re-presses, licenced, re-issues?

Ken. There's a few people on here and other places  that think I should be licensed 

Steve. Ste. I'm Spartacus.  Smith 

18 minutes ago, Kenb said:

 

So have we got Dave Moore and Steve Smith boots now aswell, or are they re-presses, licenced, re-issues?

Steve Smith boots.. sorry only shoes.

 

@Winsford Soul

Goodyear welted, nice!

On 01/12/2018 at 12:11, carty said:

I think it's a bit harsh to be honest , I mean it doesn't affect the price of the originals nowadays , there's a market for this stuff , ( I buy the one and I am sure many others on here do too )  Some  pensioners making a few bob , they got caught , so maybe confiscate  the discs , but jail ? As crimes go , this is not really much to write home about ( only my opinion of course ) probably about as serious as tobacco smuggling , both seems to provide a service (albeit illicit ). One side effect of this may be that the illicit discs currently in circulation may rise in value . 

These people are absolute parasites, and I think it's fair sentence, in fact I wish it were more severe - it's been a long time in the making for the authorities to clamp down on these tossers, and I hope they have a terrible time in prison.
It'll hopefully act as a strong deterrent for any wannabees, charlatans and cheats who want to selfishly make a quick (and seemingly very substantial) buck, piggy-backing on the work of proper collectors who spend the time and money tracking down these records and playing them - which is what initially makes them popular, and creates the "demand".
And as for asking to borrow records from collectors to scan..... needs to have an entire box of his bootlegs shoved right up his arse!!!!!!

2 hours ago, Winsford Soul said:

Steve Smith boots.. sorry only shoes.

 

damn fine shoes imo

2 hours ago, davidwapples said:

But old boots seem acceptable and just part of the scene back in the day to many

This is the bit that I have difficulty getting my head around. Bootlegs have been part of the scene from it’s inception and used to be a far bigger and more lucrative business back in the seventies than it is today.

Don't forget Selecta Disc sold more Rising Sun (bootleg copies) of Robert Knights - Love on Mountain Top than the reissued monument release thus possibly preventing it becoming a number one single in the UK in 1974

From 1972 until 1979 I ran a market stall in Wigan on Fridays and Saturdays selling secondhand records of all genres. I used to buy lots of imported singles from Global and Robinson’s in Manchester plus importing stuff from a few contacts in the US. Around 74 a well known Wigan Dj also ran a stall on Saturdays , before opening a shop in Wallgate (you all know who I’m talking about) his stock was almost entirely made up of records sourced through Selectadisc supplied in the main by Simon Soussan, these contained all the big tunes of the day and would be supplemented by around 10 new titles per week. Boxes and boxes of these pressings were sold week in week out for years and an awful lot of money was changing hands with no one really giving a toss about it. There would be the odd moan that someone’s  “exclusive” had been booted but by the following week it was history, with the original confined to the bin or sold off for a ludicrously low amount, Salvador’s 35p anyone ? When I got out of the record business in 79 I had made decent wages selling legitimate records, but I needed to find another job and I always felt if I had been a little less honest it could have been a different story.

I asked earlier in this thread why Ian Levine would be worried about these recent convictions,the question was a rhetorical one, although thank you Julian for taking the time to reply and reminding us all of that “Sorry saga” I doubt whether any one will ever get to the bottom of those well muddied waters, certainly not enough to take to court anyway. The fact is, many more than IL have questionable history’s in the bootlegging business, and I think it’s unfair (but probably understandable) to single him out. That doesn’t mean I’m condoning him or anyone else but at some point in the last 50 years  most of us have bought, or sold a record of,shall we say “dubious origin”

My view is that all fakes are wrong from every angle, particularly morally.Whilst the law has been enforced in this instance there is no guarantee that the problem is going away anytime soon.

 

 

In the seventies I kind of equated people who didnt buy pressings as those who had less passion ,  Who could resist some of the sounds as they were re pressed ? actually owning a copy of that record you had loved for months sometimes years , the main focus of life bieng to  travel miles  to hear it and many others, At that point , there were no down loads , c.d.s etc   and if you wanted a copy , that was pretty much the only way .They were irresistable !  That has changed today , but still some people   still prefer to have a copy on vinyl than on C.D.  Also , if we take away those who have  NEVER owned a pressing , never  played one , never sold one , never lent out an original to be copied , there wouldnt be too many people left ,    If we  then apply the same criteria to the  people around in the 70s  heyday ,  I cant think of any . ( they were around  no doubt)      Several of the main dealers currently  have  sections for  " repros" "represses" or the like  and theres not usually much distinction here whether or not they have been legally repressed or not ( in fairness some do state"  legit  reissue " or similar ) . Ok , Hang me now !   

6 hours ago, Kenb said:

 

So have we got Dave Moore and Steve Smith boots now aswell, or are they re-presses, licenced, re-issues?

Cover versions.

2 minutes ago, carty said:

In the seventies I kind of equated people who didnt buy pressings as those who had less passion ,  Who could resist some of the sounds as they were re pressed ? actually owning a copy of that record you had loved for months sometimes years , the main focus of life bieng to  travel miles  to hear it and many others, At that point , there were no down loads , c.d.s etc   and if you wanted a copy , that was pretty much the only way .They were irresistable !  That has changed today , but still some people   still prefer to have a copy on vinyl than on C.D.  Also , if we take away those who have  NEVER owned a pressing , never  played one , never sold one , never lent out an original to be copied , there wouldnt be too many people left ,    If we  then apply the same criteria to the  people around in the 70s  heyday ,  I cant think of any . ( they were around  no doubt)      Several of the main dealers currently  have  sections for  " repros" "represses" or the like  and theres not usually much distinction here whether or not they have been legally repressed or not ( in fairness some do state"  legit  reissue " or similar ) . Ok , Hang me now !   

Historically this is true, however these days buying original records is much easier, information is on tap and there's no excuse to be "unaware". Similarly, access to hearing pretty much any tune you want to hear can be achieved through various digital formats so if it is just the need to hear music that can be done easily, and I do it myself through youtube, mixcloud, soundcloud, downloads, CDs etc etc etc. as I imagine almost all people do. However, to me that is merely "research" for buying original records, which is not only the music, but it's a historical artifact connecting you directly to that time and place - whereas these knockoffs have zero historical relevance, no more so than a digital sound file... it simply doesn't make any sense to me spending money on them whatsoever...
And the people who make them are literally undermining that special thing of buying proper records - in fact they make it genuinely harder - not cos I can't tell the difference cos I can - but because on ebay in particular you have to trawl through bucketloads of fake bollocks just to find a few proper ones... it's like wading through a swamp of shite... so much so that I rarely bother with ebay anymore and stick to buying from dealers or from discogs. 
People say it "doesn't impact on the market for genuine records" but I think it does - maybe not in price - but in other ways for sure.
The bottom line is that they simply don't need to exist and NEVER HAVE, other than to line the pockets of the selfish c*nts who make them, giving no royalties to the artists and paying no due respect to the hardworking dedicated "diggers" who find them in the first place.
Parasites.

Plus most of us are not 15 or 16 anymore so cannot claim to be naive or unaware 

 

The breadth of choice that is available to consume music today for me means that there is no reason at all for people to 'boot' singles other than to defraud and con the ill informed. For new collectors the larger problem is identifying the historic bootlegs which are almost 40 years old themselves.

Clearly, by their rarity, a lot of these records sold in very few quantities so the efforts of those that arrange the legal reissues of these rare sides ought to be supported; especially if some royalties go back to the artist/writer/producer (or their families) who created these sounds that are still enjoyed.

So as I stated earlier the pressing plant that produces these  boots needs to be identified and closed so these parasites can no longer operate.  Surely the investigation must be looking into who manufacturers these boots .must be a big set up. 

8 hours ago, Richard Free said:

Plus most of us are not 15 or 16 anymore so cannot claim to be naive or unaware 

 

You are spot on, however as the scene is trying to tempt the younger audience, I can see visions of kids looking through boxes of records at gigs or searching on the net, when we are all in nursing homes or gone to the "Soul Club in the sky", looking for great tunes they really want and not having a clue what they are buying (reminds me of when I was a teenager and no internet then) It surely is our job to protect them as much as we can by helping with identifying bootlegs and at least then if they fall into the trap, or made an error, they have the whole story and can only point the finger back at themselves (or am I soapboxing too much and sounding like David Attenborough and Climate Change (just to be topical)

While I don't condone bootlegging, the Soul music scene in general doesn't abide by the laws of the land. Venues used not being fully licensed to play music springs to mind and DJs not submitting their playlists to them for paying dues. Think this has now all been put under one license now, but over the years the amount of venues not covered must of been immense. Now in the big scheme of things it may sound insignificant, but add it all together it would amass to a few bob for the artist, songwriter, etc etc.

Then  let's throw in tapes & CDs sold at soul venues for whatever price or reason is also bootlegging as its copying without permission. Selling on your bootleg " reissues" is also deemed an offence so in the main we all need to look at ourselves on this issue.

Thinking we are not doing any harm can't really be used as an excuse as we are all part of the problem, in fact we were all part of the mountain that was created by us creating the demand, whether that be back in the 70s or the collectors of today.

Having just got back from Utrecht record fair and the amount of rare Soul albums that were there for sale, all priced above the normal new price for an album but done with the same artwork etc, where if you didn't know any better would be made to fool? The demand is there so the bootleggers provide.

I was told most come out of Russia's/Eastern Europe so don't think there is much regulation out there when it comes to their practice? Look how long it's took the authorities to act here!

These four go down, but it's the tip of a very large mountain fed by a very large base.

Rant over

Dave H.

 

Hmmmm, illegal or not it's a bit hypocritical if you sell a legal 7" for hundreds profit and don't give a penny to the artist or label don't you think?!?

On 02/12/2018 at 19:13, Soul16 said:

Yes, they also sell legitimate Outta Sight and Kent product. 

This is how pervert "masterminds" operate. Just like to spread rumors, take some true facts then add up all the little twisted lies to trouble any attempt to tell appart the facts from the "mythology". This is how fake "historians" help create new Nations with "founding myth" made of that.

9 hours ago, Rocky said:

 

Hmmmm, illegal or not it's a bit hypocritical if you sell a legal 7" for hundreds profit and don't give a penny to the artist or label don't you think?!?

So if you bought a second hand Ford Escort would you send some money to Ford?

As with any second hand goods, the original owner was paid what they are due with the original sale.