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Rodders22

Wrong side of Town

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There have been loads of crap records played thats down to the DJ,s and the punters that have supported such . WSOT is contrived pap that has no provenance or history and was deliberately produced for a specific reason .

 Ian Levine as a DJ back in the day one of my heroes but WSOT is just wrong and should never have been played out originally let alone being discused with a view to it being played out now .

I appreciate that quality is subjective but there is so much quality stuff that does,nt get a look in .

 

 The thing is with NS music for me is that the records that I love were produced at a historical point in time the style and production reflects that and as such there is a tangible link and that adds quality and value tailor made records lack that IMO .

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There have been loads of crap records played thats down to the DJ,s and the punters that have supported such . WSOT is contrived pap that has no provenance or history and was deliberately produced for a specific reason .

 Ian Levine as a DJ back in the day one of my heroes but WSOT is just wrong and should never have been played out originally let alone being discused with a view to it being played out now .

I appreciate that quality is subjective but there is so much quality stuff that does,nt get a look in .

 

 The thing is with NS music for me is that the records that I love were produced at a historical point in time the style and production reflects that and as such there is a tangible link and that adds quality and value tailor made records lack that IMO .

 

I maintain that some tailor mades were perfect for the time and still stand up - just about - Weak Spot, LJ Johnson, you couldn't have got bigger records than these - LJ Johnson even went massive a second time as a shock revived oldie in 78.  Weak Spot still sounds good.

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markw, on 12 Feb 2014 - 1:19 PM, said:snapback.png

"Knowing Me, Knowing You" by Abba is, arguably (by many), a 'good record'. "I Can See For Miles" by the Who is definitely (in my opinion), a very 'good record'. Would I wish to hear them played out at a soul night of any description whatsoever? No. Would I question the discernment and judgement of any DJ playing it at a soul night? Yes.

 

Doesn't make sense.  Wrong Side Of Town is a NS record like it or not, the others aren't, The Who is a rock record and Abba is a sh*t record, so they wouldn't be considered for play anyway.

 

 

 

 

Ah ha! But it makes perfect sense - you missed my point which is that it makes no more sense considering WSOT for play as it would Abba or the Who. Even if you think WSOT is a 'good record', I cannot for the life of me see what it has to do with either Northern or Soul.

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markw, on 12 Feb 2014 - 1:19 PM, said:snapback.png

 

Doesn't make sense.  Wrong Side Of Town is a NS record like it or not, the others aren't, The Who is a rock record and Abba is a sh*t record, so they wouldn't be considered for play anyway.

 

 

 

 

Ah ha! But it makes perfect sense - you missed my point which is that it makes no more sense considering WSOT for play as it would Abba or the Who. Even if you think WSOT is a 'good record', I cannot for the life of me see what it has to do with either Northern or Soul.

 

 

I don't understand why you can't see why it has anything to do with Northern Soul, it's a Northern Soul record, it ain't a soul record but it is 100% definitely a Northern Soul record...because it sounds like one.

Edited by Pete S

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markw, on 12 Feb 2014 - 1:19 PM, said:snapback.png

 

Doesn't make sense.  Wrong Side Of Town is a NS record like it or not, the others aren't, The Who is a rock record and Abba is a sh*t record, so they wouldn't be considered for play anyway.

 

 

 

 

Ah ha! But it makes perfect sense - you missed my point which is that it makes no more sense considering WSOT for play as it would Abba or the Who. Even if you think WSOT is a 'good record', I cannot for the life of me see what it has to do with either Northern or Soul.

 

From JM's 6th edition price guide, (referring to the abbreviation "nor" in it's use to describe a northern soul record)

"A record that has been or could be played by a Northern Soul DJ"

Using this as a definition  WSOT would be classed as a Northern Soul record.

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Sorry but unless i am very much mistaken, No singer, songwriter, producer ever said lets make a non hit on purpose. Every record ever put onto vinyl they hoped to be a hit and make them money. Therefore every record ever recorded was a want-to-be pop record, including every record played on the northern. rare. modern & cross-over scene. Sorry but soul snobbery does get to me.

Yes, you're very much mistaken. The majority of pop records were most likely attempts at hits, but plenty of soul, gospel, funk, jazz, latin, blues, house, hip hop etc, you know - underground black music? - was made for the culture it came from and subsequently an expanded audience which it gained unexpectedly. They aimed to sell to that niche audience of course, but to have a national hit? Come on.

so much on here is viewing music history from a northern soul perspective where there's white pop, black pop and people trying to make one or the other. There's a world of music outside of this narrow view, and the best of it was made when having a pop hit wasn't the main priority, and for us soul fans who appreciate these underground styles, this four vandals shit is as soulful as elton john. Actually, that's harsh on elton john, who clearly has had things to say at times.

It's pop, and there's nothing wrong with pop, and nor is pop the opposite of soul or anything like that...

but it's not good soul or good pop, it's just middle of road, radio 2 friendly pointless noise.

It's not the worst music ever made, but unfortunately it's going head to head here with the best music ever made

Edited by penny

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Yes, you're very much mistaken. The majority of pop records were most likely attempts at hits, but plenty of soul, gospel, funk, jazz, latin etc, you know - underground black music? - was made for the culture it came from, aimed to sell to that niche audience of course, but to have a national hit? Come on.

so much on here is viewing music history from a northern soul perspective where there's white pop, black pop and people trying to make one or the other.

The point that i am/was trying to make is that all records are brought out with the intention of making some money, i don't think that anybody (for example) pressed 100 records with the intention of only selling 1.

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I don't understand why you can't see why it has anything to do with Northern Soul, it's a Northern Soul record, it ain't a soul record but it is 100% definitely a Northern Soul record...because it sounds like one.

Some would say the Jo Boxers Just Got Lucky sounds as much a Northern record as WSOT; doesn't make it Northern though.

 

I just hear a synthesised over dramatised pastiche when I listen to WSOT. 

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The point that i am/was trying to make is that all records are brought out with the intention of making some money, i don't think that anybody (for example) pressed 100 records with the intention of only selling 1.

 

Many studios you could walk in a cut a record.  Many just wanted the thrill of having a song on vinyl to begin with.  Ambition probably came later.

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The point that i am/was trying to make is that all records are brought out with the intention of making some money, i don't think that anybody (for example) pressed 100 records with the intention of only selling 1.

ok sorry. But you didnt say that. A hit has a specific meaning in the music business. If you press 100 records, having a hit is pretty far from your intention. I think it gets lost today how much records were a part of folk culture, often proudly opposed to mainstream culture.

of course, northern soul is often that which is drawn more from the commercial output of that culture, but northern soul isnt the only style of music. It isnt the only style of soul

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markw, on 12 Feb 2014 - 1:19 PM, said:snapback.png

cannot for the life of me see what it has to do with either Northern or Soul.

 

Really though? I mean really Mark...?  :g:  

 

Had Ginger foxed and he's no slouch. Well he's a tremendous slouch, but look that's beside the point. You know the point old stick :wink: - polygraph for mark!  :lol:

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ok sorry. But you didnt say that. A hit has a specific meaning in the music business. If you press 100 records, having a hit is pretty far from your intention. I think it gets lost today how much records were a part of folk culture, often proudly opposed to mainstream culture.

of course, northern soul is often that which is drawn more from the commercial output of that culture, but northern soul isnt the only style of music. It isnt the only style of soul

 

Hi Penny,

I have interviewed hundreds of recording artists. I have yet to find one who says they made records for a reason other than to try and get a hit record. Even if they pressed 100 it was in the optimistic hope that Stax, Atlantic, scepter, Sound Stage 7, Motown, or a myriad of mid sized labels would pick it up….Yes artists sometimes pressed records for sale at gigs etc….that's true, but ultimately unless it was a special press for a specific event, they all wanted to get a hit…. 

Edited by Steve G

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Some would say the Jo Boxers Just Got Lucky sounds as much a Northern record as WSOT; doesn't make it Northern though.

 

I just hear a synthesised over dramatised pastiche when I listen to WSOT. 

Thank you. Somebody understands where I'm coming from.

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Really though? I mean really Mark...?  :g:  

 

Had Ginger foxed and he's no slouch. Well he's a tremendous slouch, but look that's beside the point. You know the point old stick :wink: - polygraph for mark!  :lol:

 

Well. What can you say? Liking or not liking the record is a matter of individual taste. Failing to spot what was frankly an obvious and not very well disguised musical dud is another matter.

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Many studios you could walk in a cut a record.  Many just wanted the thrill of having a song on vinyl to begin with.  Ambition probably came later.

A record for yourself or maybe a couple for friends and family is a different story, i could not use these as an example. What i'm trying to get at is what "Penny" is saying, Lots of these people cut records to make money, maybe not aspiring to be a national "hit" but hoping to sell well locally and if very very lucky get some national airplays. But my main point still stands, nobody (with a few exceptions for "chalky") cut a record to lose money. Whether it is just a local hit or goes national they all hoped to get money or fame.

I hate typing, what about discussing this face to face, i'm a nice guy and get on with everybody, but keyboards are so "cold" and i can't always express what i'm trying to say in type.

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All these points beg the question.
If this record (WSOT) had been found in a pile of old records in Detroit in a 1 cent box in a back street junk shop, and it was actually nothing to do with Ian Levine & Steve Bernstien, and hadn't been ready made for the NS market to fool people. Would it get played by the big guns as a rare Northern Soul record and be worth lots of money?

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Had Ginger foxed and he's no slouch.

 

Hi Ian, Ginger will be the first person to tell you he's a DJ and not a record collector.......He's been turned over more than once I am afraid to say - Johnny Watson another example......DJs are always more likely to fall for these things, another DJ friend we all know has had similar experiences over the years, occasionally buying stuff and thinking it's something it isn't.

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Hi Penny,

I have interviewed hundreds of recording artists. I have yet to find one who says they made records for a reason other than to try and get a hit record. Even if they pressed 100 it was in the optimistic hope that Stax, Atlantic, scepter, Sound Stage 7, Motown, or a myriad of mid sized labels would pick it up….Yes artists sometimes pressed records for sale at gigs etc….that's true, but ultimately unless it was a special press for a specific event, they all wanted to get a hit….

so you're denying the existence of niche markets and underground culture then? So when graham bond released his intense version of wade in the water in 1965, he thought 'that's it! This is the one to knock tne dave clarke five off the top spot!'. The record was absolutely aimed at the niche mod and jazz market.

I agree, no one intends a record to fail, but there is a range of intensions for success and underground culture does, in fact, often make it's art for the sake of making it.

and thank god, for if everyone had made music that they thought would be accepted by the masses, there would have been far less experimentation and innovation, and more stuff would sound like that wishy washy four vandals stuff

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Removed.

 

No I thought better of it for once Steve.....just couldn't be bothered with the flack I would receive from some quarters...everyone knows the truth anyway & wouldn't be at all surprised if the post was a troll anyway....its all attention seeking.

 

Russ

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so you're denying the existence of niche markets and underground culture then? So when graham bond released his intense version of wade in the water in 1965, he thought 'that's it! This is the one to knock tne dave clarke five off the top spot!'. The record was absolutely aimed at the niche mod and jazz market.

I agree, no one intends a record to fail, but there is a range of intensions for success and underground culture does, in fact, often make it's art for the sake of making it.

and thank god, for if everyone had made music that they thought would be accepted by the masses, there would have been far less experimentation and innovation, and more stuff would sound like that wishy washy four vandals stuff

 

Hi Penny, yes I do disagree....am not talking about Graham Bond, am talking about soul acts in the USA......Yep sure a few did projects for Jesse Jackson's PUSH movement, March of Dimes etc. but by and large people make a record to have a hit......or to make money.

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so you're denying the existence of niche markets and underground culture then? So when graham bond released his intense version of wade in the water in 1965, he thought 'that's it! This is the one to knock tne dave clarke five off the top spot!'. The record was absolutely aimed at the niche mod and jazz market.

I agree, no one intends a record to fail, but there is a range of intensions for success and underground culture does, in fact, often make it's art for the sake of making it.

and thank god, for if everyone had made music that they thought would be accepted by the masses, there would have been far less experimentation and innovation, and more stuff would sound like that wishy washy four vandals stuff

 

Graham Bond might have been a jazz/rhythm and blues purist with a pure heart and pure intentions in terms of his music but it would be naive to think that he made records for any other reason but to sell them ... and sell loads of them ... on the pop charts ... no matter how unrealistic that might have been in his particular case.

Edited by sunnysoul

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Hi Penny, yes I do disagree....am not talking about Graham Bond, am talking about soul acts in the USA......Yep sure a few did projects for Jesse Jackson's PUSH movement, March of Dimes etc. but by and large people make a record to have a hit......or to make money.

 

I think you are missing the point Steve. Of course people made records to have a hit, and make money, but the point I was originally making was that not every artist made a records EXPECTING to have a 'POP' hit, which is what the original poster said.

 

There are loads of artists who would never in a million years ever have had a 'pop' hit, they knew that, they still made records though.

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Was The Wrong Side Of Town video filmed in Ian Levine's back garden?

 

http://youtu.be/UIlEiPU5PWQ

 

"There's Four Vandals in next door's back garden".  "Don't worry Missus, we'll send a car round straight away".

i had to listen to it..its worse than i remember it...cringeworthy..........but i liked this one .....also steve brookstein..shoot bullets if ya like

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CA4BhDBF7M

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Some would say the Jo Boxers Just Got Lucky sounds as much a Northern record as WSOT; doesn't make it Northern though.

 

I just hear a synthesised over dramatised pastiche when I listen to WSOT. 

 

It does, though you could have used a better example like Heartache Avenue LOL but the difference is, that was produced commercially in quantities of thousands and got in the charts, Four Vandals ORIGINALLY was known by 2 or 3 copies hence it being included on the NS scene due to it's "rarity"

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Wasn't quick enough, so going back to the start of this thread,  "NO"...... :wave:

 

Dunno about 'Underground Culture' Penny, nearest we got here in Wendover is a Parish council meeting on a Monday morning, entrance tax, one Pkt Custard creams and any 'Peters and Lee' record...

 

Welcome Home.........to the Wrong Side of Town..... :facepalm:

 

Malcolm

Edited by Mal C

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It does, though you could have used a better example like Heartache Avenue LOL but the difference is, that was produced commercially in quantities of thousands and got in the charts, Four Vandals ORIGINALLY was known by 2 or 3 copies hence it being included on the NS scene due to it's "rarity"

I just had to 'youtube' Jo Boxers and you're right, I had to laugh at the video. Great stuff :D  

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All these points beg the question.

If this record (WSOT) had been found in a pile of old records in Detroit in a 1 cent box in a back street junk shop, and it was actually nothing to do with Ian Levine & Steve Bernstien, and hadn't been ready made for the NS market to fool people. Would it get played by the big guns as a rare Northern Soul record and be worth lots of money?

 

Not for me, a turd is a turd!

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Please bear with me here.

 

Sorry, but the thing I dislike most about this track is the other 3 Vandals. For me those backing vocals are cheesy and just don't work with Brookstein's voice. I would have just the instrumentation at the beginning which would give a nice anticipation leading up to the lead vocal coming in. There's no doubting Brookstein has a great voice so I would multitrack it a bit more and have some nice girly backing laid way back in the mix.

 

I think you would end up with a quality 60's Long John Baldry soundalike. That would be just to my taste.  

 

Listen to it again with those thoughts and see if I'm not right. :thumbup:

 

Oh and I'd pay someone some decent money to make a decent video. :D

 

O.K. I'm done.

 

MB

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Graham Bond what an artist but even he wanted a hit.Listen to Tammy.Most of the great music is when the managers left the studio with their cigars and the bands were left to be themselves on the b side.

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I have just had the displeasure of listening to the Four Vandals, got halfway through and turned it off,

come on lads, lets talk quality soul music, how this sort of music can cause a frenzy is beyond me :thumbsup:

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Graham Bond might have been a jazz/rhythm and blues purist with a pure heart and pure intentions in terms of his music but it would be naive to think that he made records for any other reason but to sell them ... and sell loads of them ... on the pop charts ... no matter how unrealistic that might have been in his particular case.

That's crackers. You can hear when graham bond - fuck knows why we're talking about him! - tries to water it down- I'm no authority on him but the 45 'tammy' for instance. Now there you can see that he, probably reluctantly, tried to have a hit, and you can tell it's not him and it's also fairly crap. Then you hear 'wade in the water' where he obviously tried to make hip music that he liked for a very particular audience, who also liked it. This would happen even if that scene was only a few thousand people. Music would still be made if there was no chance of fame or great wealth. This isnt naieve, though apparently a radical concept to the modern, western mind

Now, for an artist like that, or herbie hancock, or whoever, they would ideally make music that they thought was good and sell enough to a discerning audience to sustain that process. On occasion, you would hear such artists water their product down in an obvious attempt to have a hit, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, sometimes it was still good music, sometimes not and sometimes a whole new genre was created.

but to say that every artist, with every song, was trying to have a pop hit is just wrong, if this were true there would be no alternative styles of music. How would explain the left field, bizarre and experimental? I realise these aren't key words for northern fans.

Or are you saying that soul is, by definition, a commercial genre - effectively 'black pop?

i dont see it that way, some is, some isn't. The roots of the style, and the culture it sprang from, existed and thrived before it was commercialised - in churches and clubs.

records are by definition commercial products, true, but music isnt created to fill a record, records were created to record music

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Graham Bond what an artist but even he wanted a hit.Listen to Tammy.Most of the great music is when the managers left the studio with their cigars and the bands were left to be themselves on the b side.

Posted same time, I mentioned 'tammy' too.

and you're right - most artists would make something other, better, if not restrained by commerce, and often do.

to bring us back to the thread - that four vandals sounds like there's definitely a cigar smoking manager in the viscinity - it's insincere and bland and out of place in it's era, a lot of modern retro records suffer from the same thing.

It may be soul but it has none, relevent modern soul exists and generally doesnt need to pastiche.

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Posted same time, I mentioned 'tammy' too.

and you're right - most artists would make something other, better, if not restrained by commerce, and often do.

to bring us back to the thread - that four vandals sounds like there's definitely a cigar smoking manager in the viscinity - it's insincere and bland and out of place in it's era, a lot of modern retro records suffer from the same thing.

It may be soul but it has none, relevent modern soul exists and generally doesnt need to pastiche.

 

Jack Bruce said that Graham Bond chose Tammy as a release, and blamed their lack of commercial success on his choice of material, if fact his whole career was marked by uncompromising choices, sometimes ahead of the curve.

Edited by Tony Smith

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It always reminded me of The Exits Street Lamp, but that one I do like, must be the tempo or something.

Re; Jo Boxers, great band, still got all their singles from the early 80's, loved them, also like band called Buzz from that time, they were similar and soulful.

He should have named Four Vandals..... Four Candles I reckon.

Isn't Exciters Reaching For The Best another of this Levine ilk?

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 Yep..........joey delorenzo...utter crap,but as i,ve said so are loads of legit tunes....tommy and the derbys for instance...........so i,m keeping my minty white demo of the four vandals

Gordon, bad news I'm afraid, the mint white demos are boots. The original is easily identifiable as it's credited to Ian Levine and the  Three Vandals, the run-out has a Cashville Matrix stamp and all existing copies are warped...

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