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barney

Venues Value For Money

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many,s the time on our travels when we get to the door of a venue with a tenner in my mitts for missis and myself and I have uttered the dreaded Yorkshire war cry AR MUCH ,and then this is usually compounded by sky high bar prices and you need the equivalent of the weekly 40 hours minimum wage to enjoy a night out ,

 

Would like to ask what peoples views are concerning door tariffs and bar prices ?

 

its usually the more of what I consider the more commercial bigger venues that tend to be pricey but are they value for money . there are a couple of high tariff venues not far from me and loads over the hills in injun country (lancs),.

the owners of these establishments not only want a cut of the door takings but also charge to me exhorbitant drinks prices of usually dubious quality beers ,lagers and disgusting dispensed soft drinks .

 

I have come to the conclusion that I no longer want to go to these places, because there are much cheaper venues playing equally or better quality music and the promoters of these are much friendlier and more accessible .

for instance went to a local venue near me last night £4  in, cheap bar ,change from a fiver for 2 drinks , run by people who have been on the scene for years who operate a strict OVO policy, playing  crackin genuine across the board sounds ,

whats your take on this folks ,.

regards B :hatsoff2:

Edited by barney

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Guest gfarrington

i myself have a slight adversity going to venues that charge more than a tenner, & i'm not even from yorkshire

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Can't think of a night I've been to recently that's more then a fiver & I would only expect to pay £10/12 for a nighter.All the night's I go to are run by people where it's about the music not making money.I understand that night's have to at least break even & have no problem them making a pint or two out of a night but they also don't need to fund the villa & Ferrari?

Cheers

Martyn

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At the rarer & underplayed events in Bradford I have only just increased the entry fee to £6.

This is for 8 hours of soul tunes on original vinyl.

 

The bar prices are very cheap, the landlord & staff are very helpful and polite. The sound system is superb, I renew the styli regularly etc.  I pay for the room hire, bar staff and have DJs to pay....

 

I will not pay silly inflated entry prices to listen to dodgy sound systems playing suspect vinyl by bootleg bill and the look-a-likes (sounds like a cover up!). Likewise, I won't pay nightclub prices for a drink!

 

I know promotors don't want to be out of pocket but some are taking the pee.

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I am involved with an all-nighter and believe me we would like to charge more than what we charge on the door now, £10.  We have no wish to make a profit, it would be nice of course, but covering costs is the main stipulation and we barely do this.  Peope do not realise what it costs for equipment, DJ's, venue, door staff etc etc.  

 

£15 should be a minimum these days and £7 or £8 for a soul night.

 

try going to a normal club down town and see what you will pay.  Try going to a club that has the best DJ's and you would be paying far far more than the equivalent NS night/nighter.

 

The northern scen are happy to sit in dumps, flea bitten working mens clubs and venues that should be shut down all to save a few bob.  Happy to pay 1000's for the records but listen to them in second rate establishments.

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I think we've had it good for years. It's been a fiver for most soul nights and a tenner for nighters at least as far back at the late 90s. It feels strange when I do pay more than a tenner, but as Chalky says we need to move with the times. £15 for 9 hours at a nighter is good value in my opinion.

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have not been to an allniter for years but can agree that this is going to cost more ,but there are loads of free entry events run by genuine soulies where the owners of these venues are quite happy to pay the dj,s/promoters and are happy with the increased bar takings , so how does this square with those venues at the other end of the spectrum ,

don't think comparisons with town centre nightclubs are relevant most soulies I know wouldn't dream of going to such places,.

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What a bunch of tight arses. For £10 at a niter you get eight or nine hours entertainment, of the best music known to man, and amongst some of the best people known to man.

 

THAT'S £1.25 AN HOUR over eight hours!!

 

Where else, where you have to pay for entertainment, can you get that sort of value ?

 

Cinema - No

Football - No

Concert - No

etc etc etc

 

Can anyone actually think of somewhere, or something, that provides that great a value for money ?????????

 

I certainly can't

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have not been to an allniter for years but can agree that this is going to cost more ,but there are loads of free entry events run by genuine soulies where the owners of these venues are quite happy to pay the dj,s/promoters and are happy with the increased bar takings , so how does this square with those venues at the other end of the spectrum ,

don't think comparisons with town centre nightclubs are relevant most soulies I know wouldn't dream of going to such places,.

 

LOADS of free entry events where the venue owners PAY the dj's & promoters????? Is this in La La land?

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The Take Two in Sheffield early 90's was £2 to get in.  Today, well the third Friday, The Horti Club in Sheffield £3.  I bet the bus fair from Sheffield city centre to Darnell is more than the entrance fee!!

 

Just shows how prices haven't really changed for a long time.  Nighters back then were a fiver, they have only doubled in price in 20 odd years, I wish I could say the same for everything else in my life since then.

 

I'm happy to pay a little bit extra for some comfort, better equipment (new stylus or should I say styli alone should be a minimum requirement every time and they aren't cheap), different DJ's rather than the mates of mates you get at many places.  I usually find the cheaper the venue the worse the ale is as well.
 

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I think maybe the difference between the northern scene and other regular club goers is that they spend £20 to get in but it's local and they pay a bus fare or a short taxi ride to get there. We on the other hand travel the length of the country, so an entrance fee is added onto maybe £70 in petrol. In the scheme if things we are probably paying a lot more than clubbers. It's not the cost of getting into venues that puts people off, but the overall cost of a weekend these days, and when promoters put the price up (fair enough) it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

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I think maybe the difference between the northern scene and other regular club goers is that they spend £20 to get in but it's local and they pay a bus fare or a short taxi ride to get there. We on the other hand travel the length of the country, so an entrance fee is added onto maybe £70 in petrol. In the scheme if things we are probably paying a lot more than clubbers. It's not the cost of getting into venues that puts people off, but the overall cost of a weekend these days, and when promoters put the price up (fair enough) it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

To be fair Matt most promoters take into account the travelling and keep things as cheap as possible.  But again that is only relevant to those that travel, I guess the vast majority don't travel or don't travel too far.  And again I guess if you are a clubber, and I don't mean a local piss head going to the local night club, the dance scene or whatever it is called, clubs that employ the best DJ's, Ministry Of Sound, Creamfields or whatever is en vogue these days, they charge far more than we do and the travelling is there as well.

 

I'm travelling far less but that is because of the music that is on offer.  I can hear the same at local soul nights.  All the reasons I travelled the length and breadth of the country for are fast disappearing in a sea of mediocrity but that is a different argument.  The entrance fee if it was somewhere I wanted to go wouldn't put me off.

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went to eggboro last night £2 entry although got a free pass last night (thanks Julie) modern reasonably sized main room and a side room for the shufflers , £2.50 for a pint of john smiths , great dancefloor which was full all night. the sound system is ok and full of good people ,. 70 mile round trip so not exactly on doorstep but well worth it ,. could have gone to several more local venues but went there because one of our mates was guesting plus two other excellent dj,s who played great eclectic sets of quality music and had a few goes at making shapes on the floor myself ,.

free entry soul nights run by soulies with a vinyl only policy .are nothing new round here , landlords /club owners have cottoned on round our way that it attracts a reasonable crowd , not my cup of tea but hey ho its there .have a look in events ,.

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I think maybe the difference between the northern scene and other regular club goers is that they spend £20 to get in but it's local and they pay a bus fare or a short taxi ride to get there. We on the other hand travel the length of the country, so an entrance fee is added onto maybe £70 in petrol. In the scheme if things we are probably paying a lot more than clubbers. It's not the cost of getting into venues that puts people off, but the overall cost of a weekend these days, and when promoters put the price up (fair enough) it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Thats a very good point.I dont go to as many venues these days but most involve spending on average £20 on fuel to get there.Another point to consider is that most peoples wages havent increased much if any in the last 10 years and lots of us are in low paid or part time jobs.Nowadays my record buying and venue spending has to be strictly budgeted.

On the whole i think most venues are still great value for money and some of the Weekenders even more so.But even at a weekender you have to factor in the price of your accomodation for 3 days.

Take the point about wanting nice venues with good facilities but the so called run down clubs and halls have always and still have that certain atmospheric x factor that our music thrives on.Some of my all time fave venues have been in such places.Nothing i hate more that a Northern soul night in a plush night club style setting it just doesnt feel right.

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We have started a monthly soul night in Doncaster "upfront @ the horse & jockey" playing rare and undervalued across the board quality soul.. with cheap bar prices and FREE entry. We're not in it to make any money, just wanted an antedote to the plethora of monthly events in Donny playing the usual stuff we've heard a thousand times...our aim is to attract dj's from Doncaster and south York's (and beyond) who are willing to play for a few beers to the area's knowledgeable real soul crowd..

Admittedly, we're very lucky we've got a great (smallish) room for nothing with an excellent relationship with the owners which allows us the freedom to be a bit self indulgent.

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The sound system is as important as the venue / door tax.

Charge on the door should reflect 1) - room costs,2) - dj's fees 3) - amount of hours open.

Beer costs are usually the domain of the management / brewery.? 

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LOADS of free entry events where the venue owners PAY the dj's & promoters????? Is this in La La land?

 

 

We have started a monthly soul night in Doncaster "upfront @ the horse & jockey" playing rare and undervalued across the board quality soul.. with cheap bar prices and FREE entry. We're not in it to make any money, just wanted an antedote to the plethora of monthly events in Donny playing the usual stuff we've heard a thousand times...our aim is to attract dj's from Doncaster and south York's (and beyond) who are willing to play for a few beers to the area's knowledgeable real soul crowd..

Admittedly, we're very lucky we've got a great (smallish) room for nothing with an excellent relationship with the owners which allows us the freedom to be a bit self indulgent.

there was a free night on in Rotherham Friday run by a well established dj and promoter

Edited by barney

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I don't have a problem with entrance fees but I do have an issue with the greed of councils and holiday camps charging excessive prices for drinks at weekender venues

 

At one weekender this year I paid £4.50 for a pint of Guinness in a plastic glass

 

With the amount of people they get in they could afford to subsidise the drinks prices but instead they seem to increase them

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many,s the time on our travels when we get to the door of a venue with a tenner in my mitts for missis and myself and I have uttered the dreaded Yorkshire war cry AR MUCH ,and then this is usually compounded by sky high bar prices and you need the equivalent of the weekly 40 hours minimum wage to enjoy a night out ,

 

Would like to ask what peoples views are concerning door tariffs and bar prices ?

 

its usually the more of what I consider the more commercial bigger venues that tend to be pricey but are they value for money . there are a couple of high tariff venues not far from me and loads over the hills in injun country (lancs),.

the owners of these establishments not only want a cut of the door takings but also charge to me exhorbitant drinks prices of usually dubious quality beers ,lagers and disgusting dispensed soft drinks .

 

I have come to the conclusion that I no longer want to go to these places, because there are much cheaper venues playing equally or better quality music and the promoters of these are much friendlier and more accessible .

for instance went to a local venue near me last night £4  in, cheap bar ,change from a fiver for 2 drinks , run by people who have been on the scene for years who operate a strict OVO policy, playing  crackin genuine across the board sounds ,

whats your take on this folks ,.

regards B :hatsoff2:

Brilliant mate :-) :-)

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The sound system is as important as the venue / door tax.

Charge on the door should reflect 1) - room costs,2) - dj's fees 3) - amount of hours open.

Beer costs are usually the domain of the management / brewery.?

got to agree kev but would you go to a venue with sky high beer (drink) prices and the drinks were crap and undrinkable which is unfortunately true at some of these venues which don't open every night or every w/end even and beer is allowed to go stale . once bought a bottle of diet coke and it was 2 years out of date ffs .

Edited by barney

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There are not many who promote who are in it to make a profit, happy to cover costs and have enough for the next one.

I agree chalky... badly worded by me.. I didn't mean to imply everyone else is out to make a quick buck..

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clearpixel.gif

Note to our Guest DJ’s

We understand that your records are valuable, treasured and expensive items.
Please be assured our equipment and sound system is first rate. We use Genuine Technics 1210 MK2 turntables and Ortofon Concorde Cartridges.
Each turntable is calibrated every time the equipment is setup on the day. Both tone arms are zero balanced, checked for ‘0’ anti-skate, and stylus tracking force is applied at 3gms weight. The styli are checked and replaced regularly too.
We have all turned up to DJ at certain clubs and have been expected to play our records on cheap poorly maintained ‘junk’ equipment and worried about what impact it will have on our precious records right???
We respect our records and yours too. So please play your highly prized 45’s with confidence, and be assured that your records are not going to be chiseled and trashed by too much weight, worn Styli, or just badly setup equipment

not cheap to maintain in tip top condition

part of our webb site wont push club in this thread

 

Lawrence

Harold_Decks.jpg

Edited by algsoul

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Guest Mrs M

Orrell All Dayer in Wigan. 1pm to 1am. £8 and a day full of class tunes across the board with a magic crowd... Top quality at a bargain price!! Highly recommended

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clearpixel.gif

Note to our Guest DJ’s

We understand that your records are valuable, treasured and expensive items.

Please be assured our equipment and sound system is first rate. We use Genuine Technics 1210 MK2 turntables and Ortofon Concorde Cartridges.

Each turntable is calibrated every time the equipment is setup on the day. Both tone arms are zero balanced, checked for ‘0’ anti-skate, and stylus tracking force is applied at 3gms weight. The styli are checked and replaced regularly too.

We have all turned up to DJ at certain clubs and have been expected to play our records on cheap poorly maintained ‘junk’ equipment and worried about what impact it will have on our precious records right???

We respect our records and yours too. So please play your highly prized 45’s with confidence, and be assured that your records are not going to be chiseled and trashed by too much weight, worn Styli, or just badly setup equipment

not cheap to maintain in tip top condition

part of our webb site wont push club in this thread

 

Lawrence

Harold_Decks.jpg

 

All this should be standard. I only organise one gig a year. I lost almost $10,000 on the first three.  I was lucky in that that loss had been generated by 'dealing in 45s' and so as such had no impact on my 'real' finances.  We charge what we feel is a fair price for what we furnish for our guests. I wrote off that $10,000 and every penny we now take in tickets and have done for the past 7 years,  is fed back into the gig. We now own our own quality soundrig (2 in fact), that has been built up with quality parts, many bespoke, year by year.  The styli are replaced ON A DAILY BASIS at our gig. No stylus is used for more than 8 hours.  We buy flowers and little gifts for our fantastic hotel owners and their staff as a thank you for all their efforts and this year I'm hoping to have a bass laden floor speaker built by a technician I know to add to our rig.  A tenner?  Nah..... not unless you've got free DJs, free venue, and a crowd the size of Wembley.

 

At Radcliffe in November this year there will be:

 

1. A four member group from the US. (The Four Perfections)

2. A fantastic professional studio band (with an additional bari sax)

3. 3 Rooms of soul DJs catering to different tastes.

 

20 quid.        

 

Value for money?    I should koko! :thumbsup:  

 

Regards,

 

Dave

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Nice response Dave. Happy to pay my dues wherever I go. It's about the music in the first instance and I am not always looking to save money. When I am out of a job, then maybe a different story. I just wish I could earn a living song writing and being generally effervescent about the music like I have been since 1973 etc. 

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Been running soul nites niters wkenders for years if anybody thinks its for money ,give it a go and and the best of fookin british to you.Theres only one or two who are in it for the money and to give them their due,they are extracting every penny possible out of everybody they possibly can lol.When I ran middleton its was £4200 a night to put the key in the door,3 rooms 30 jocks 3 sets of dj equipment 8 door staff advertisein ins etc etc.These days I run stubbshaw in ahston with mick lyons .8 hours mini niters  and 10 hour niters 8 djs door staff club costs advertisein etc etc £6,some of you don't know how lucky you are. 

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Only one answer for me Horse & Groom  Sunday Chill Out reasonable beer and free entry for at least 8 hours entertainment.

 

No Probs.

 

  •  2 

 

 

Which is in Donny, folks

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Which is in Donny, folks

presumably this is a dig at my post.. if you'd read it properly you'd have seen we are  a monthly NIGHT..the chillout is every second month on a Sunday..  I see it as a complement to the chillout not as competition..

 

In fact the chillout boys attend our event as we do theirs..

 

The CHILLOUT is still for me, THE number 1 free event in the country and will remain so.. They've set the bench mark for everyone else to try and attain. 

 

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Been running soul nites niters wkenders for years if anybody thinks its for money ,give it a go and and the best of fookin british to you.Theres only one or two who are in it for the money and to give them their due,they are extracting every penny possible out of everybody they possibly can lol.When I ran middleton its was £4200 a night to put the key in the door,3 rooms 30 jocks 3 sets of dj equipment 8 door staff advertisein ins etc etc.These days I run stubbshaw in ahston with mick lyons .8 hours mini niters  and 10 hour niters 8 djs door staff club costs advertisein etc etc £6,some of you don't know how lucky you are.

Andy. I'm with you mate. Winsford nighter used to cost £2000 1 room 8 DJ,s. That didn't take into account going out to promote the nighter every Friday and Saturday sometimes to two or three venues a night driving God knows how many miles and paying into the venues. People think it's easy money.

Steve

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If venues have quality DJs (e.g those who have their own distinct sets and not just carbon copies of the big hitters, or those just playing the same old same old) and has a cracking sound system I wouldn't blink at paying £15.

 

I can never get my head around how quality promoters and Djs make this stack up, some DJs playing sets that are in valued in tens of thousands and some grumble at a tenner. I'd rather pay £15 to hear quality rather than a fiver to be bored stiff with the usual tracks. 

Edited by Byrney

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I am involved with an all-nighter and believe me we would like to charge more than what we charge on the door now, £10.  We have no wish to make a profit, it would be nice of course, but covering costs is the main stipulation and we barely do this.  Peope do not realise what it costs for equipment, DJ's, venue, door staff etc etc.  

 

£15 should be a minimum these days and £7 or £8 for a soul night.

 

try going to a normal club down town and see what you will pay.  Try going to a club that has the best DJ's and you would be paying far far more than the equivalent NS night/nighter.

 

The northern scen are happy to sit in dumps, flea bitten working mens clubs and venues that should be shut down all to save a few bob.  Happy to pay 1000's for the records but listen to them in second rate establishments.

I kinda like the foisty scruffy venues, a bit nostalgic I think. After all, most of the original nighters were scruffy dumps.

After saying, that I really enjoyed Bridlington, superb modern venue and no damp smelly seats.

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Financial analysis of modest venue costs

Rent for a small venue £150pm

Equipment 2 decent 2nd hand technic 1210 turntables £1200  (25% wear & tear per year) £300 /12 = £25pm

Ortofon Mk2 needles £150 (replacements every 3 months (20 hours max) = £50pm

Speakers, amp, mixer & cables £1500 (25% W&T per year) £375 /12 = £30pm

DJ costs 6 hours at £50 (some are more expensive and some are less expensive) £300pm

Printing fliers and travelling to promote event £50 per month

Before a punter pays a penny in door tax the event has cost a promoter £600 

If the event has to hire security the costs increase further........ 2 doormen all night and that's another £300

 

Modest venue requires at least 120 customers paying £5 door tax to break even without security costs.

Soultown Andy is correct about a few promoters making a bundle out of orgnising events, whilst the majority will struggle to break even. 

Before we complain about the door tax look at the numbers of paying customers in a venue and the overheads the promoter is paying upfront, if fewer people come through the door the promoter is out of pocket, if more attend the promoter will probably need that surplus for the extra costs on the anniversary event.

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Any event with a door tax of £0 - £5 must be value for money, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are good.

£10 - £12 value for money probably equates to a good night.

If I could pay £20+ and still consider it value for money - now that would be something.

 

:hatsoff2: - Kev

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Any event with a door tax of £0 - £5 must be value for money, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are good.

£10 - £12 value for money probably equates to a good night.

If I could pay £20+ and still consider it value for money - now that would be something.

 

:hatsoff2: - Kev

 

Free CD, bar and buffet.

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Went down to KGH a couple of months ago.  Advance tickets were £7.50 but was charged £13 on the door!  To add insult to injury, the main room was closed on the night, despite being advertised.  I was told this was due to poor ticket sales.  I think they made up for the shortfall on the door price and the bar prices.

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Trouble is some of the top DJ's are about £200 for an hour spot (I'm led to believe) then like others have mentioned there's the venue costs, equipment costs etc so if you're paying £10 for an All Nighter then it's not bad value for money in my opinion. There's always the option of choosing a local venue which will be much cheaper, sometimes free entry and cheap bar prices but you can't expect to hear the same records that the top DJ's are going to be playing over at the £10 in All Nighter. Unless of course they're playing boots but I suppose that's up to you. 

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I'll be honest if a venue is charging £2/3 admission, I probably wouldnt even bother, doin it on the cheap in a crap venue, would be my immediate thoughts (not neccessarily true, but that is what I would be thinking first). 

 

£15 should be the absolute minimum entrance fee to an All Nighter IMHO.  If folk are doing it right & making a slight profit, then that is the bare minimum that should be charged. 

 

Any other ordinary club is charging at least the above & if promoters are doing things right & putting the punter not the profit margin first then I have absolutely no problem with this.

 

Food for thought, we were charging £5 admission 15 years ago to a soul night, it never became an issue with our punters because I believe we gave exceptional value for money.  To do a soul night properly in 2014, I would want to charge £8 at least.  I have never ever wanted to use scout huts, social clubs etc for venues, I want to give my punters much more than that & were possible use proper clubs & up market function rooms, with the best quality equipment & DJ's.

 

Anyone can throw together a shoddy do in a dingy social club, with ya own dodgy equipment & mates DJing...oh yeah, thats pretty much what most do's are these days innit..... on the whole ya get what ya pay for generally.

 

Russ

Edited by Russ Vickers

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Would pay £20 for my favourite nighter,but this is the only place........said this a long time ago and stands true today.............don,t go to soul nites except the odd stewartby  2 mins away thats a fiver.......going out for us lot 4 in a motor  easily costs a oner per couple wherever....

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Trouble is some of the top DJ's are about £200 for an hour spot (I'm led to believe)

 

You might find two or three people charge that, the reality is that for most DJs, when you take into account travel and drinks, food, and sometimes overnight accommodation, never mind buying records, we make a loss on every booking we do !

 

Here's an example. I'm being paid £125.00 for a booking next year.  It will cost me:

 

£8 taxi to the station

£108 return train fare

£5 taxi to the venue

£5 taxi back to the station in the morning

£8 Taxi home from the station.

 

So before I've even bought a beer, I've spent £134. Then as I'm out of the house for nearly twenty hours, you have to add in food as well. Never mind buying records !

 

Now I have no doubts whatsoever that I will be paid at this event. However, in the past promoters have turned round when I've travelled and DJ'ed and said "Sorry, there's no money to pay you, I'll pay you later in the year."

 

That happened to me two years ago when I DJ'ed at the Grand Atlantic in Weston Supermare.

 

I'm still waiting for that promoter to pay me ! He's on here as well, so perhaps he might read this and feel that it's about time that "later in the year" arrived !

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With that in mind then I suppose it's fair to say that at £10-£15 you are getting value for money when you take everything into account. I must admit Dave, I hadn't even thought about the other costs involved! I'll buy you a pint and a pack of crisps next time I'm at Rugby haha! That £200 figure was just something somebody said to me, so obviously as you say, there's only a few charging that.

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Some DJ's are more than £200 but I would think £100 to £150 is about the norm.  When compared to other scenes and what a DJ puts into getting to where he or she is you are still getting it on the cheap. 

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You might find two or three people charge that, the reality is that for most DJs, when you take into account travel and drinks, food, and sometimes overnight accommodation, never mind buying records, we make a loss on every booking we do !

 

Here's an example. I'm being paid £125.00 for a booking next year.  It will cost me:

 

£8 taxi to the station

£108 return train fare

£5 taxi to the venue

£5 taxi back to the station in the morning

£8 Taxi home from the station.

 

So before I've even bought a beer, I've spent £134. Then as I'm out of the house for nearly twenty hours, you have to add in food as well. Never mind buying records !

 

Now I have no doubts whatsoever that I will be paid at this event. However, in the past promoters have turned round when I've travelled and DJ'ed and said "Sorry, there's no money to pay you, I'll pay you later in the year."

 

That happened to me two years ago when I DJ'ed at the Grand Atlantic in Weston Supermare.

 

I'm still waiting for that promoter to pay me ! He's on here as well, so perhaps he might read this and feel that it's about time that "later in the year" arrived !

 

Dave, possibly a silly question but why not drive a car to the venue instead?  £60 petrol as opposed to £134 fares.

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I've been following this thread for a couple of days and I am seriously puzzled why it has gone on so long. 

Value for money in the entertainment industry is and always will be subjective. The general rule that "you get what you pay for" only applies when you purchase tangible objects like cars, furniture, clothes, food, etc and even here their is an element of subjectivity.

 The previous comments that, free entry or £3 events are crap, but if you pay £15 they are going to be a great, is completely unfounded and has no relevance to value.

In my opinion "Horse and Groom" Doncaster free admit = great value, "Kings Hall" Stoke £15 ? = poor value , wear as, Prestatyn Weekender total average cost  £300 (inc food acomm, fuel etc) is poor value, but the Bamberg Weekender @ £600 is great value.

Now before you all jump to your key boards to slag me off please read the first three words of the sentence again, I'm not necessarily right, I'm sure that a lot of folks would have a completely opposite opinion, whilst for others the afore mentioned are neither both great nor poor examples of value for money.

The costs and calculated risk of putting on the big events by professional promoters are enormous and they are entitled to make as big a profit as the market can sustain, however, events organized by promoters where the driving force is, a passion and love of the music rather than profit are imo more enjoyable to attend and are more likely to represent better value.

Ultimately the commercial success or failure of most things in life is determined by placing the right product in the right marketplace and pricing it accordingly.

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