pottsy 189 Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Thought I'd share this, some might find it interesting ? Years ago I was fortunate enough to end up with Billy Arnells copy of Tough Girl. This was via a third party so unfortunately I didn't get to meet him. Anyway, with the record came an interesting news paper cutting that he'd kept since the records release. Billy (real name Smith) was only 17 when Tough Girl came out. According to the news paper cutting the record was to be released as "Little Willie and the Sparkles" - Tough Girl B/W Little Baby. I can't do scans at the moment so I've attached a photo, hopefully it will enlarge when you click on it. Edited October 31, 2014 by pottsy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paul U 21 Posted October 31, 2014 Great post mate! Always liked this tune, not because of its stand out brilliance but, because of the first time I heard back in the '70s the memories that it evokes - but that's another story ;-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John A 265 Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) I wonder what happened to him? What with the overthrow of the Beatles not quite going to plan I always found that scrap of newspaper fascinating Ady. Hope ya well mate? Edited October 31, 2014 by John A Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
becker154 74 Posted October 31, 2014 Adey- Great post & info shared Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Godzilla 1,059 Posted October 31, 2014 I wonder what happened to him? What with the overthrow of the Beatles not quite going to plan He wrote, produced and presumably played organ on this psych-funker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pete S 15,516 Posted October 31, 2014 I've seen that article before, someone else must have cut it out of the paper because I'm sure I saw it on Ebay, years ago Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Turner 62 Posted October 31, 2014 There is an alternate version of Tough Girl (rubbish), and the Little Baby side on emusic.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Winsford Soul 6,872 Posted October 31, 2014 Nice one Adey. Hope your well Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrsWoodsrules 2,421 Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) I loved this at Wigan, tried to buy a copy of Richard, he'd let it go the week before, that killed me at the time. To be honest, it's dated now, sounds like something by Russ Conway played an Blackpool tower organ now, still, it was a great atmospheric tune in the main hall, it was of its time. Anyone remember the horrible vocal? Was it Sammy Davis Jr or was that a cover up name, I seem to remember? Edited October 31, 2014 by MrsWoodsrules Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Rix 536 Posted October 31, 2014 There are always interesting back stories to these 45s ….. Billy Smith changed his surname to Arnell for the 45 release as he thought it sounded more showbiz ! … he was actually only 14 at the time but as the band were gigging in bars he had to pretend he was much older Billy and Lou started the group together .. they lived less than a block apart in Fair Lawn NJ. Later they added friends: Eddie Hoffman (organ) and Jack Gullone (drums). Eddie became a teacher somewhere in Long Island. Jack ended up living in Northern NJ. He graduated from the Culinary Institute of America in Massachusetts. The group played all over locally and by chance, meet Joe Martin of Apex-Martin Distributors in Newark, NJ. That meeting led to the "Tough Girl" recording session. When they did the first version of Tough Girl, the producer (the original one) wasn't happy - nor was Joe Martin. So he fired that producer and brought in George Kerr. George didn't like the band, so they redid the entire thing without the Sparkels, only with Billy singing and Lou on guitar. George brought in Eric Gale on guitar, Bernard "Pretty" Purdie on drums, Bobbie Banks on Organ, and a forgotten bass player. In addition they used the studio horn section that Lou arranged for plus two trumpets, two saxes and two vibes players. Billy ended up starting a record company and a recording studio in NY with a partner named Steve Loeb Lou went on to have a very impressive career in the music industry which you can see here http://www.louhemsey.com/About_Lou_Hemsey.html Andy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peter99 9,913 Posted October 31, 2014 There are always interesting back stories to these 45s ….. Billy Smith changed his surname to Arnell for the 45 release as he thought it sounded more showbiz ! … he was actually only 14 at the time but as the band were gigging in bars he had to pretend he was much older Billy and Lou started the group together .. they lived less than a block apart in Fair Lawn NJ. Later they added friends: Eddie Hoffman (organ) and Jack Gullone (drums). Eddie became a teacher somewhere in Long Island. Jack ended up living in Northern NJ. He graduated from the Culinary Institute of America in Massachusetts. The group played all over locally and by chance, meet Joe Martin of Apex-Martin Distributors in Newark, NJ. That meeting led to the "Tough Girl" recording session. When they did the first version of Tough Girl, the producer (the original one) wasn't happy - nor was Joe Martin. So he fired that producer and brought in George Kerr. George didn't like the band, so they redid the entire thing without the Sparkels, only with Billy singing and Lou on guitar. George brought in Eric Gale on guitar, Bernard "Pretty" Purdie on drums, Bobbie Banks on Organ, and a forgotten bass player. In addition they used the studio horn section that Lou arranged for plus two trumpets, two saxes and two vibes players. Billy ended up starting a record company and a recording studio in NY with a partner named Steve Loeb Lou went on to have a very impressive career in the music industry which you can see here http://www.louhemsey.com/About_Lou_Hemsey.html Andy Great stuff Andy. Peter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jamesh 40 Posted October 31, 2014 Thanks Andy, fascinating read Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Only Dreaming 173 Posted October 31, 2014 Cheers for the info Andy. I never knew there were so many big names involved in the record. Dave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FRANKIE CROCKER 1,182 Posted October 31, 2014 Good post Ady and well enhanced by Andy's contribution. Great record and one that I dream of owning one day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Prophonics 2029 256 Posted November 1, 2014 I never would have thought this was a 14 year old boys lyrics or a one singing...ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jerry Hipkiss 196 Posted November 1, 2014 Informative stuff as always Mr Rix...but can anyone remember what it was covered up as? I have a long running (good natured) argument with Flynn-san of Tokyo, who was far too young to be there :-) , but I can remember charging up to the stage at St Ives and yelling "what's this?"...and the answer came "The Sparkles - New Jersey Pike"...anyone confirm please? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfk 638 Posted November 1, 2014 He wrote, produced and presumably played organ on this psych-funker. the-second-thought-slingshot-briteleaf.jpg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfk 638 Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) He wrote, produced and presumably played organ on this psych-funker. the-second-thought-slingshot-briteleaf.jpg Billy Arnell with The Brothers ? NYC / NJ session on Zanzee... BA On guitar as per his Sparkles group ? Edited November 1, 2014 by tfk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pete S 15,516 Posted November 1, 2014 Informative stuff as always Mr Rix...but can anyone remember what it was covered up as? I have a long running (good natured) argument with Flynn-san of Tokyo, who was far too young to be there :-) , but I can remember charging up to the stage at St Ives and yelling "what's this?"...and the answer came "The Sparkles - New Jersey Pike"...anyone confirm please? Never heard that before Jerry, so must have been a different c/u name...or was not covered at all at Wigan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macca 1,354 Posted November 1, 2014 Martyn Smith from Bedford, who has an extraordinary memory regarding all things St. Ives, claims that this, along with many other sounds, were St.Ives firsts. I only did a Wigan twice that year (77) and fore end and back end of the year and remember St. Ives really giving Wigan a run for its money, both in terms of the crowds and quality of sounds. It was a long time ago, so my memory may be "spiked". :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gordon russell 3,112 Posted November 1, 2014 great info.........but still a pop record.....not really soul Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billywhizz 932 Posted November 1, 2014 Martyn Smith from Bedford, who has an extraordinary memory regarding all things St. Ives, claims that this, along with many other sounds, were St.Ives firsts. I only did a Wigan twice that year (77) and fore end and back end of the year and remember St. Ives really giving Wigan a run for its money, both in terms of the crowds and quality of sounds. It was a long time ago, so my memory may be "spiked". :-) spot on and clees macca, billy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macca 1,354 Posted November 1, 2014 Why would George Kerr have been draughted in on this? Did he do Pop stuff as well the more obvious sounds he's associated with? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jordirip 1,760 Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) Why would George Kerr have been draughted in on this? Did he do Pop stuff as well the more obvious sounds he's associated with? I was thinking that too macca. I thought George Kerr was pretty much a black artistes only producer, or was Billy Arnell black? I've never heard one of his productions sound as poppy as the Billy Arnell record. Edited November 1, 2014 by jordirip Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soultanforreal 7 Posted November 1, 2014 It was and is a fantastic sound black, white whatever colour its soul was in brilliant dancer inerpretation out on the floor and yes it was never better than at st ives 77 maybe someone should do a film on those other venues might be a tadge gentler than the one just done Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
purist 262 Posted November 1, 2014 I was thinking that too macca. I thought George Kerr was pretty much a black artistes only producer, or was Billy Arnell black? I've never heard one of his productions sound as poppy as the Billy Arnell record. Presumably thats him in the photo of the album sleeve holding the guitar, looks pretty much like a black man to me although he could be one of the other 8 black men in the photo (yes I counted up, nine members named in The Brothers and nine men in the photo. Would these be the same 'The Brothers' who recorded the anthemic "Are You Ready For This" on RCA?) btw - Am I alone in thinking a lot of black artists were trying their best to sound white enough for plays on the white pop radio of the day (think of the many Drifters sound-a-like bands there were, for example) after all they were all trying to make hit records.... weren't they ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macca 1,354 Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) Billy appears on the far right of this photo with Riot, a heavy metal outfit he and Steve Loeb signed in 1975. It's the only pic of him I can find. http://books.google.es/books?id=ZyQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT13&lpg=PT13&dq=billy+arnell+fire+sign&source=bl&ots=E_KBBecY8p&sig=ZfeMwy61mcRMELnSAH7C8x1NcNc&hl=es&sa=X&ei=qh1VVOnvEJDjasSmgZAD&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false Edited November 1, 2014 by macca Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Godzilla 1,059 Posted November 1, 2014 Billy appears on the far left of this photo with Riot, a heavy metal outfit he and Steve Loeb signed in 1975. It's the only pic of him I can find. http://books.google.es/books?id=ZyQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT13&lpg=PT13&dq=billy+arnell+fire+sign&source=bl&ots=E_KBBecY8p&sig=ZfeMwy61mcRMELnSAH7C8x1NcNc&hl=es&sa=X&ei=qh1VVOnvEJDjasSmgZAD&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false Well here's another (at least I think it's him) - all their names are helpfully written on and arrowed in marker pen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jordirip 1,760 Posted November 1, 2014 Presumably thats him in the photo of the album sleeve holding the guitar, looks pretty much like a black man to me although he could be one of the other 8 black men in the photo (yes I counted up, nine members named in The Brothers and nine men in the photo. Would these be the same 'The Brothers' who recorded the anthemic "Are You Ready For This" on RCA?) btw - Am I alone in thinking a lot of black artists were trying their best to sound white enough for plays on the white pop radio of the day (think of the many Drifters sound-a-like bands there were, for example) after all they were all trying to make hit records.... weren't they ? For some reason I always thought he was white John. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Godzilla 1,059 Posted November 1, 2014 Presumably thats him in the photo of the album sleeve holding the guitar, looks pretty much like a black man to me although he could be one of the other 8 black men in the photo (yes I counted up, nine members named in The Brothers and nine men in the photo. Would these be the same 'The Brothers' who recorded the anthemic "Are You Ready For This" on RCA?) btw - Am I alone in thinking a lot of black artists were trying their best to sound white enough for plays on the white pop radio of the day (think of the many Drifters sound-a-like bands there were, for example) after all they were all trying to make hit records.... weren't they ? The singer of the vocal version of Tough Girl is black? I'd take a lot of convincing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
solidsoul 630 Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) The Instrumental was the Big sound in the 70's, not the vocal.It's a great instrumental, and when played loud in a venue it does sound atmospheric! Trouble is when ever it's played now it's always the vocal that's played.Not a record for the deep soul fans!The newspaper cutting is a great piece of lost music history, enjoyed reading it. Edited November 1, 2014 by solidsoul Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macca 1,354 Posted November 1, 2014 Well here's another (at least I think it's him) - all their names are helpfully written on and arrowed in marker pen 1975.jpg I'd seen that photo but wasn't sure that it was the same Billy Arnell, unlike the one with his partner at Fire Sign, Steve Loeb. The Billy Arnell featured in the group shot are of a west coast band called the Stumpbreakers. Could be him though. Apart from them recording hard rock acts like Riot he and Loeb recorded many of the nascent NYC Hip Hop acts of the early 80s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macca 1,354 Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) There's another Billy Arnell who died in 2012 and was known on Youtube as BM_MIDI. He was based in NYC and well respected musician and contributor the Cakewalk forum. Not sure if it's "our" Billy boy though. Edited November 1, 2014 by macca Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Holdsworth 317 Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) Seem to remember Billy Arnell features on the credits of some of the Drifters Bell recordings from early 70's. Can't remember which ones though (Or was it on the Fantastics recording credits, same time same label ?) Edited November 2, 2014 by Mick Holdsworth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theothertosspot 254 Posted November 2, 2014 Informative stuff as always Mr Rix...but can anyone remember what it was covered up as? I have a long running (good natured) argument with Flynn-san of Tokyo, who was far too young to be there :-) , but I can remember charging up to the stage at St Ives and yelling "what's this?"...and the answer came "The Sparkles - New Jersey Pike"...anyone confirm please? The Sprinkles - New Jersey Connection Ref Shades of Soul Issue 11 (article by Andy Rix/Richard Domar) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tosspot 1,271 Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) Edited November 2, 2014 by tosspot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jerry Hipkiss 196 Posted November 2, 2014 The Sprinkles - New Jersey Connection Ref Shades of Soul Issue 11 (article by Andy Rix/Richard Domar) Ho hum...Oh well, I'm pretty sure my memory is correct, but I'll just have to roll with it...for now...;-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macca 1,354 Posted November 2, 2014 Might it have been New Jersey Turnpike, Jerry? Do the residents of NJ refer to their famous freeway as 'the pike' by any chance? This is probably stretching chin-stroking to unbearable limits, I know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theothertosspot 254 Posted November 2, 2014 Ho hum...Oh well, I'm pretty sure my memory is correct, but I'll just have to roll with it...for now...;-) You may well be right, I was just going on what I read in Shades. The cover up names could have been regional Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gordon russell 3,112 Posted November 2, 2014 It was and is a fantastic sound black, white whatever colour its soul was in brilliant dancer inerpretation out on the floor and yes it was never better than at st ives 77 maybe someone should do a film on those other venues might be a tadge gentler than the one just done nope..........just a pop tune....nothing more nothing less Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
macca 1,354 Posted November 2, 2014 Like the Dalton Boys, Gordon? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark R 914 Posted November 2, 2014 It might be a pop record, and I'm all for maintaining the soul content, but accepting that the Northern scene hasn't always concerned itself too much with that I have always thought of this record as a NS dancers dream of a record.......atmospheric, the drum rolls, break down etc. Love it.....of its time.... Cheers, Mark R 1 Bruv reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark R 914 Posted November 2, 2014 Like I say....atmospheric.......43:30 here......Clive Jones...... http://www.mixcloud.com/soulboymark/hinckley-leisure-centre-all-niter-live-december-1983/ Cheers, Mark R Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Corol 247 Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) Post modified. Edited November 3, 2014 by El Corol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sean Hampsey 1,110 Posted November 3, 2014 Unreleased Album - Acetate. Sean Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmy clitheroe 190 Posted November 3, 2014 The burley sound must not contain any blue eyed soul I suppose? great record IMHO , always got me on the floor at the casino....Paul Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pete S 15,516 Posted November 3, 2014 The Instrumental was the Big sound in the 70's, not the vocal. Spot on, vocal was never played, yet when booted they put the vocal on both sides! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteveM 93 Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) It was reactivated late seventies Pete. Certainly around South Yorks. Vocal rather than Inst. Edited November 3, 2014 by SteveM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pete S 15,516 Posted November 3, 2014 It was reactivated late seventies Pete. Certainly around South Yorks. Vocal rather than Inst. Don't know about late 70's Steve, neither version was played until end of 77 start of 78 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteveM 93 Posted November 3, 2014 Inst played 77 Pete. Vocal version played after that, around here and at Notts Palais all dayers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
