Men jailed for ‘fake’ vinyl records scam

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The Proceeds of Crime hearing should be interesting.

WOW!! Not before time, but have to say, "Why Has It Taken So Long?"

About time something like this happened, integrity in this game is paramount, we all know this type of activity has been going on since the inception of the rare soul scene, I have an understanding of how this all works and first and foremost it's about paying your dues and following the correct criteria throughout the process of putting out records, I do hope the record companies who own the publishing on this material hit them hard with royalties due, I do hope this will be the catalyst for the total removal of this activity but I somehow doubt it.

13 minutes ago, RICK SCOTT said:

WOW!! Not before time, but have to say, "Why Has It Taken So Long?"

Why dont the relevant people BPI, MCPS or whoever just sponsor an "is this a bootleg button" on the sites that sell them. Even better make it a legal requirement of said sites to feature one. How hard can it be ?.

10 minutes ago, Mark Bicknell said:

do hope the record companies who own the publishing on this material hit them hard with royalties due

 

Quote from the article.

Judge Williams said: “The accused made a market for what there was no legitimate source.”

He said the amount of money the men owed the record companies in royalties had not been calculated but “is likely to be small”.

43 minutes ago, RICK SCOTT said:

WOW!! Not before time, but have to say, "Why Has It Taken So Long?"

Because, as the original newspaper article states  "Judge Richard Williams  said no members of the public had complained about purchasing the records" adding that they would have expected them to be unlicensed presses...

So the boot playing wannabee dj's and the promoters that put them on are directly responsible for allowing this crime to perpetuate. Some would argue that eBay is similarly responsible for allowing the sale of such items despite numerous complaints which have been ignored.

Maybe more arrests are to follow now that the case against the main players has been successful.  Interesting to note that the case has been ongoing since at least July 2014. Hmmm, anyone bought or sold any boots since 2014 ?

 

- Kev

3 minutes ago, Soulsides said:

 

Quote from the article.

Judge Williams said: “The accused made a market for what there was no legitimate source.”

He said the amount of money the men owed the record companies in royalties had not been calculated but “is likely to be small”.

I know but at least 55,000 dodgy records are off the market which is a result.

Trouble is some other sum bag will take their place eventually but it's a start  one even still had stuff on ebay last week

Unfortunately, if there is money to be made, some will take a short cut.

Similar was going on some 60 years ago, also.

One of the most [THEN] flagrant cases of record bootlegging was uncovered in Feb 1958 when the office of the Illinois state’s attorney uncovered a distribution set up in Chicago and a pressing arrangement in Cincinnati. Records, plates and masters were confiscated at the Cincinnati pressing plant by Cincinnati police on information supplied by Chicago’s state’s attorney. Estimates of records produced and sold throughout the United States ranged from 100,000 since Christmas (1957) to several millions since the operation’s inception. Proof that the bootlegging was in operation before Christmas was the discovery of “The Joker” by Billy Myles on Ember.

Surely it’s up to us to denounce this criminal practice? I get pretty sick of seeing this rubbish for sale and fault the buyers just as much as the bootleggers. How do these cowboys gain access to a pressing plant - surely this could be more tightly regulated. Can’t believe the sums of money involved - there are obviously lots of people who need their heads tested for squandering their cash on this trash.

55 minutes ago, KevinKent said:

. Hmmm, anyone bought or sold any boots since 2014 ?

No but I've had a pair re-souled.

Mugs will always buy fake things that is why  these scum bags will always be around,  handbags perfume watches fair game,  but records that's sacrilegious

If you look at the pics there appears to be boxes of Kent stuff as well. 

vid of local news piece

 

Looking at their names at least one of these was a northern D.j in the early days round the time of the Cats, sad to read this

How many where reproductions of original labels not just boots to fool people into buying what they thought was the genuine record.  Because we all know it has happened 

Steve 

Yeah, I noticed too that the picture showed clearly boxes of Kent records. Danny White, Betty Bibbs, Troy Dodds, Timmy Wilson, Ansler Montel , Mel Williams.

In my opinion Kent records are a great label known for a lot of reissues, and all of their records are correctly licensed.

Perhaps some clarification is required. Were the criminals also booting Kent records ? Or were the criminals selling both legitimate and illegal records. Is the picture description incorrect?

Thanks

Mark

 

As other members have said on the site re. Bootlegs:

"they were just doing it for the love of the music".

B*llocks

Sounds like a possible plot for NORTHERN SOUL - THE MOVIE 2... 🙄

Bootlegs have been coming out of Kidderminster since the 1970s, somehow it seemed relatively innocent in those days, but this Is just pure greed and is totally shameful. Looks like there are sizeable sums of money involved here, I wonder what the proceeds have been spent on.

If there was any justice, eBay could surely have some liability here too, they provided the platform for it and take a cut of the proceeds in commission. However, the seller is responsible for the item I guess. Interesting stuff.

Julian Convay?  Dyslexic bootleggers.

At last - name and shame them..

I should imagine a few other unofficial suppliers are feeling a little less comfortable as this gathers more focus in the market place.

 

What's the betting once these guys are in prison, each of them will be known on the landing as Bootsy?

Take note: the case was about the bootlegging only, expect these lads to be reappearing again sometime soon for cheating the HRMC, probably be getting extra time for that? Presumably KENT should get on the case if these lads were bootlegging Kent records?

Godfrey heard that name many times over the years and the amount of money he had and got a suspended ffs

The newspaper story link took us to the South Wales Argus. I took a look at a few local stories that appeared on the right and found what appears to be the happiest man ever upon being arrested: https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/17267313.have-you-seen-this-man/?ref=mr&lp=4

10 hours ago, Spain pete said:

Mugs will always buy fake things that is why  these scum bags will always be around,  handbags perfume watches fair game,  but records that's sacrilegious

People paying a fiver have hardly been mugged they know what they are buying so are not mugs at all. 

And it’s no different to buying a fake Vuitton bag. How is it?

I think the reporter on the BBC has made a slight error......amusing

Doesn't seem to know what a single is

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46393631

Breaking News - From the Reuters News Desk

Hundreds of Northern Soul events are facing closure with numerous DJs facing redundancy as their suppliers of vinyl records are imprisoned.

As spokesperson for the Non Original Vinyl and Bootleg Only Promotors Society ( NOVBOPS) said ' Many of our promoters are facing ruin in the light of these imprisonments, as well as our 'new; DJs losing their livelihoods as record supplies 'dry' up. An emergency meeting of NOVBOPS is being called in the hope that some of those affected will be able to 'rustle up' sufficient original records to continue with the odd event. However the spokesperson stated that this scenario was unlikely as most promoters and DJs don't know what an original 45 looks like and finding people with any knowledge of original vinyl records was proving an almost impossible task.

Check in with Reuters for future updates on this breaking story

 

 

2 hours ago, JNixon said:

People paying a fiver have hardly been mugged they know what they are buying so are not mugs at all. 

And it’s no different to buying a fake Vuitton bag. How is it?

It was meant to be tongue in cheek john 😯

Real news about fakers makes a pleasant change from fake news about real people.

At last thank f..k for that.🤣🤣

 

It would be great to get some pics of the bootlegs up on here (other than the 2 shown on the report) and the brown boxes full of them

 Can you imagine the shock for the two guys sent to prison. This must be unprecedented for such a crime and I bet they thought they would get a small fine. From the articles I have seen it doesn’t say if all four were manufacturing as well as selling - Maybe the two who received suspended sentences were just selling, but in bulk. There are hundreds of people selling bootlegs on eBay and other sites who must be sourcing from a number of similar people who actually do the repressing and now will need to seriously reconsider their activities.  Copyright infringement/license fraud is a massive business, but record booting is only a very small part, albeit increasing over recent years.  It would be interesting to know which of the media/music companies were active in this case or whether it was mainly driven by the BPI. I will try and get a copy of the Court case files as we have very little detail so far.

I have never booted a record but of course have bought many over the years as most of us will have. Why have an original £1000+ record on your 1958 juke box for example.... Of course we all would like to think decent royalties have been paid to the artists and their estates hence praising the likes of Kent, Grapevine and other legitimate companies.  In reality this doesn’t happen as much as we would like for many reasons of which booting is one and at last may be taking a downturn. 

13 hours ago, Simon Bonsor said:

If you look at the pics there appears to be boxes of Kent stuff as well. 

No,those aren’t counterfeit KENT records....those are the pre-orders KevinKent put in,ready to be shipped out......

😂😂😂😂😂😂🤫🤫🤫

There’s still loads on eBay right now. Even the sellers name and location strongly suggest that it’s the same ‘gang’. Unbelievable.

1 minute ago, Soul16 said:

There’s still loads on eBay right now. Even the sellers name and location strongly suggest that it’s the same ‘gang’. Unbelievable.

Can we have a link please

15 hours ago, Kegsy said:

Why dont the relevant people BPI, MCPS or whoever just sponsor an "is this a bootleg button" on the sites that sell them. Even better make it a legal requirement of said sites to feature one. How hard can it be ?.

A good idea but someone without a lot of knowledge may think a local issue is a boot or a legit reissue is a boot and "hit" the button. Or if it's a dealer someone doesn't like  "hit" the button out of spite. I'd rather see someone with considerable knowledge employed to root out these illegal records. (just an opinion) 

How many are out there already? Have you got one in your box.... ? Unfortunately someone has paid for a fake....

11 minutes ago, Dave West said:

I'd rather see someone with considerable knowledge employed to root out these illegal records. (just an opinion) 

I was thinking along the lines of the button being used to flag things up, for review by someone with the knowledge. Which ought to stop people misusing the function.

 Bought bootlegs myself in the 70s only way obtain some sounds then  i know it was wrong but no excuse today plenty of legal sources today  if all u want 2 do is listen 2 to the music

53 minutes ago, Soul16 said:

There’s still loads on eBay right now. Even the sellers name and location strongly suggest that it’s the same ‘gang’. Unbelievable.

Well that is good news! Surely there's no way now that eBay can avoid being hauled over the legal coals for their participation.

- Kev

4 minutes ago, KevinKent said:

Well that is good news! Surely there's no way now that eBay can avoid being hailed over the legal coals for their participation.

- Kev

https://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Archive-Seller-Central/How-to-sue-ebay-or-paypal/td-p/386557

27 minutes ago, Pablorally said:

How many are out there already? Have you got one in your box.... ? Unfortunately someone has paid for a fake....

Their whole business was based on selling fakes to buyers who knew they were fakes on a Buy it Now basis for around £6 each. They shifted loads of this illegal worthless plastic to buyers who wanted to be part of the ‘new cool’ that is Northern Soul...

 

42 minutes ago, Rictic66 said:

 Can you imagine the shock for the two guys sent to prison. This must be unprecedented for such a crime and I bet they thought they would get a small fine. From the articles I have seen it doesn’t say if all four were manufacturing as well as selling - Maybe the two who received suspended sentences were just selling, but in bulk. There are hundreds of people selling bootlegs on eBay and other sites who must be sourcing from a number of similar people who actually do the repressing and now will need to seriously reconsider their activities.  Copyright infringement/license fraud is a massive business, but record booting is only a very small part, albeit increasing over recent years.  It would be interesting to know which of the media/music companies were active in this case or whether it was mainly driven by the BPI. I will try and get a copy of the Court case files as we have very little detail so far.

I have never booted a record but of course have bought many over the years as most of us will have. Why have an original £1000+ record on your 1958 juke box for example.... Of course we all would like to think decent royalties have been paid to the artists and their estates hence praising the likes of Kent, Grapevine and other legitimate companies.  In reality this doesn’t happen as much as we would like for many reasons of which booting is one and at last may be taking a downturn. 

Being involved with Secret Stash Records in recent years I have an understanding of how this all works, we have the exclusive worldwide licence from One-derful productions to be able to legally issue the recordings, One-derful records was founded by the Leaner Brothers in Chicago and the catalog is now owned by Ernie Leaners son Eric, everything we release has to be given the green light by him and full licence fees paid in advance of any releases, there has been a great deal of time, investment and hard work to firstly go through all the masters and transfer from studio masters to modern day technology before you even start the process, this of course is the case of Ady at Kent, Rob Moss at Hayley, the Soul Junction boys and other legitimate labels, ok the licence might not be a huge amount of money but it's simply the correct thing to do, where there is somtimes a grey area is when you can't trace who owns the publishing rights to these recordings as in the annals of time with tiny long since defunct record labels tracing the ownership is well pretty much impossible making it often easy pickings for this type of activity but it still wrong but very much exploited.

1 hour ago, Rictic66 said:

 Can you imagine the shock for the two guys sent to prison. 

Yep! Fresh meat in the block. Brings a whole new meaning to those ' little hole, big hole ' debates.

I think it's a bit harsh to be honest , I mean it doesn't affect the price of the originals nowadays , there's a market for this stuff , ( I buy the one and I am sure many others on here do too )  Some  pensioners making a few bob , they got caught , so maybe confiscate  the discs , but jail ? As crimes go , this is not really much to write home about ( only my opinion of course ) probably about as serious as tobacco smuggling , both seems to provide a service (albeit illicit ). One side effect of this may be that the illicit discs currently in circulation may rise in value . 

Presume the two that got suspended sentences was because of being first offences.

I got asked by one of them to borrow my 'The Parisians - Twinkle Little Star' because he wanted a decent scan of the label. I wasn't aware of why, but something didn't feel right, so I didn't oblige (Not sure if this record got counter-fitted)

What records do we know have been counter-fitted by them? Be good to have them listed for people to be aware.

So, have people been buying them for £6.00 from these guys, then selling them as originals for said value? 

Len 

 

1 hour ago, carty said:

I think it's a bit harsh to be honest , I mean it doesn't affect the price of the originals nowadays , there's a market for this stuff , ( I buy the one and I am sure many others on here do too )  Some  pensioners making a few bob , they got caught , so maybe confiscate  the discs , but jail ? As crimes go , this is not really much to write home about ( only my opinion of course ) probably about as serious as tobacco smuggling , both seems to provide a service (albeit illicit ). One side effect of this may be that the illicit discs currently in circulation may rise in value . 

Agree. Should be a civil law matter. Get an injunction, and sue for unpaid royalties. The crime here is unpaid income tax. To be clear though I don’t condone this activity or buy this product.

31 minutes ago, carty said:

I think it's a bit harsh to be honest , I mean it doesn't affect the price of the originals nowadays , there's a market for this stuff , ( I buy the one and I am sure many others on here do too )  Some  pensioners making a few bob , they got caught , so maybe confiscate  the discs , but jail ? As crimes go , this is not really much to write home about ( only my opinion of course ) probably about as serious as tobacco smuggling , both seems to provide a service (albeit illicit ). One side effect of this may be that the illicit discs currently in circulation may rise in value . 

But what about the pensioners the other side of the water, I would bet more than half of those singers and writers struggle to buy food...

15 minutes ago, ric-tic said:

But what about the pensioners the other side of the water, I would bet more than half of those singers and writers struggle to buy food...

Fair enough , yes , maybe the discs should have been sold off and the proceeds sent over there , complicated business though , many artists now passed on , relatively small amount of cash to be distributed , what about producers etc .. But in principle that would be the ideal community payback  . Maybe the transgressors should be made to sit across the table from their victims , and explain their motivations for acting in such a manner , I am Sure Saxie Russell and co would appreciate the " healing " opportunity